Well, according to you, I'm doing you a favor and freeing up the vax for overseas. — James Riley
Can't prove a negative. — James Riley
That's my plan. Calling out your BS so everyone who thinks you're the bees knees can see it. Trying to get you to change your plan, take a seat and quit killing people. — James Riley
What is 'psuedo' about the scientists I've cited, are you suggesting the BMJ is a 'pseudo' scientific journal, is the World Health Organisation a 'psuedo' health organisation? — Isaac
I didn't say they were, I said you are. — James Riley
I already taught you about the professions and how they work. — James Riley
You cited a paywall. — Cheshire
Did I speak too quickly for you? — Isaac
Well then don't use one as support for an argument. — Isaac
The plan I was referring to was how to get the whole world vaccinated. Even if everyone was 100% in favour of vaccination the problem we're facing now would be untouched. It's about distribution of vaccines, not willingness to take them. — Isaac
That's why I cite my sources. These aren't my arguments, they are the arguments of experts in their field. — Isaac
So you are an expert now? You know all about how the academic world works yes? What level of academic qualification do you have? How many years have you spent in the field? — Isaac
Here's a primer - If the prevalence of yellow balls in a container is 20% and red 80%, my chances of picking a yellow ball are 20% assuming I pick randomly. If, however, I'm predisposed to pick yellows, my chances of picking yellow are greater than 20% even though the prevalence of yellows remains unchanged. — Isaac
You can be predisposed but how can that influnce your picking of a ball? Im predisposed every time to win the lottery but never won it. — Prishon
my chances of picking a yellow ball are 20% assuming I pick randomly. — Isaac
Perhaps get a shot then. — Cheshire
Vaccines don't prevent you from being infected, nor from carrying the virus, they help you to clear the virus and so limit the chances of needing hospital care. The theorised reduction in transmission is because the viral load should be lower (on average) in the vaccinated because of this speedier clearance. Neither affect the viral load outside the bloodstream, in the nasal mucosa, for example, which, as I cited earlier, carries a significant proportion of the transmitted virus particles.
The point is, that as the current evidence stands there no reason to assume vaccination reduces viral load to any greater degree than a healthy immune system does (only the average immune system of the study's cohort), and there's no reason (no medical mechanism even) to assume it has any effect on the most transmissible viral load in the nasal mucosa. Hence the ambiguity about transmission. — Isaac
One thing to consider is that the symptomatic are probably more likely to spread the disease than the asymptomatic simply because they cough a lot more, so if the vaccination reduces the chances of symptomatic COVID then the vaccination reduces transmissibility, irrespective of whether or not it reduces viral load. — Michael
But if you pick a ball with the intention to pick a yellow one and truly pick it you have to look into the container. — Prishon
Vaccines don't prevent you from being infected, nor from carrying the virus, they help you to clear the virus and so limit the chances of needing hospital care. The theorised reduction in transmission is because the viral load should be lower (on average) in the vaccinated because of this speedier clearance. Neither affect the viral load outside the bloodstream, in the nasal mucosa, for example, which, as I cited earlier, carries a significant proportion of the transmitted virus particles.
The point is, that as the current evidence stands there no reason to assume vaccination reduces viral load to any greater degree than a healthy immune system does (only the average immune system of the study's cohort), and there's no reason (no medical mechanism even) to assume it has any effect on the most transmissible viral load in the nasal mucosa. Hence the ambiguity about transmission. — Isaac
And it's not just about transmissibility. The increased hospitalisations of the unvaccinated increases the burden on the health care system, taking up ICU beds and doctors' time. — Michael
Getting a vaccine is hardly a burden — Michael
refusing one is seen as a pointlessly selfish societal harm. — Michael
The vaccine reduces symptomatic Covid by reducing viral load. The question is whether it does so to a greater degree than a healthy immune system's own antibody production when taking the viral particles of the airway into account. We've only evidence that it does so on average (ignoring known cohort variation in immune response to SARs-cov-2 infection) — Isaac
I don't think there's any way of knowing if one's own natural immune system works better than or as well as the vaccine, so the studied average is the only evidence we can use to make the decision. Young and healthy people can, and have, caught COVID and been symptomatic, so one can't use one's age and lifestyle as evidence. — Michael
Way smaller than my chances of needing a hospital bed from a dozen other lifestyle choices not so vilified - like eating bacon, or drinking excess alcohol, or skiing, or... — Isaac
In cases like eating bacon or skiing they're not vilified (except by some vegetarians in the case of eating bacon) because we understand the reason(s) why people choose to do them, and deem them acceptable reasons. But this isn't the case for not getting a vaccine. Unless you have allergies or other underlying health conditions that make vaccinations more dangerous than COVID, there are no acceptable reasons to not have the vaccine. Even among those who have a low risk of death or serious illness from COVID, the risk of death or serious illness from the vaccine is even lower, so it's irrational to not get vaccinated, hence it being an unacceptable decision (given the effects having COVID may/can have on transmissibility and hospitalisation). — Michael
People who drink excess alcohol are vilified. — Michael
That's true. I don't see what that's got to do with the case I'm arguing. I'm not suggesting that society finds the risks from lack of vaccination to be acceptable, or the risks form eating bacon unacceptable. I'm quite clear on what society thinks of the matter. None of this changes the cold hard fact that the risks (for certain cohorts) are comparable. — Isaac
What people inject into their bodies is no business but their own. Whatever reasons they may have, no matter how illogical to outsiders, does not factor into whether they should have the right to make their own decision. To me, this discussion is as clear cut as abortion. — Tzeentch
Assume that the effects on the health care system of people eating bacon is the same as the effects on the health care system of people not getting vaccinated against COVID. Given that the reason(s) for eating bacon are acceptable we don't vilify those who eat bacon, and given that the reason(s) for not getting vaccinated against COVID are unacceptable we vilify those who don't get vaccinated against COVID. — Michael
Yes, agreed. But the reasons we, as a society, currently find acceptable are not in question. I'm arguing about the data, no society's capricious preferences. — Isaac
it's unnecessary for my age/health group the risk is lower than many other acceptable risks — Isaac
there is limited supply and my vaccine would be better off given to a diabetic slum dweller in India than to me
I don't trust my health to a private profiteering corporation with more lobbying power than the arms industry.
In what way are those less acceptable than - I like the taste.
Abortions affect others as well. — Tzeentch
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