And yet you repeated none of those things, except in an abstract sense. And get a girlfriend - unless a gentlemanly decency had you omit that detail. — tim wood

:lol: Girls were never my strong suit. I'm too boorish.

Anyway, what's so abstract about the paterrn whiteness I see in clouds, snow, and other white objects?

Lovely idea. — Srap Tasmaner

Why thanks!

Out there, nothing repeats. — tim wood

There are plenty of patterns in nature, I’m not disputing that. I’m taking issue with the claim in the OP which is much stronger than that.

That’s not a pattern. If you had a row of stones, 4 black, 1 white, repeating - then you’d have a pattern. ‘Whiteness’ in that sense is nearer to a Platonic universal.

Anyway, what's so abstract about the pattern whiteness I see in clouds, snow, and other white objects? — TheMadFool

You see a resemblance of a sort in clouds, snow, and other white objects. Yes? What is a resemblance, exactly? Think it through. If you can conclude that the notion of resemblance is in those things, and that is what you perceive, then kindly describe how that works?

the idea is projected onto and then supposed to originate in the thing or things. — tim wood

Define ‘thing’ without using a notion of pattern or relation.

Anyway, what's so abstract about the pattern whiteness I see in clouds, snow, and other white objects?
— TheMadFool

You see a resemblance of a sort in clouds, snow, and other white objects. Yes? What is a resemblance, exactly? Think it through. If you can conclude that the notion of resemblance is in those things, and that is what you perceive, then kindly describe how that works? — tim wood

What do you mean by "...describe how that works..." I see the color white in all white objects. That's all there is to it.

Define ‘thing’ without using a notion of pattern or relation. — Joshs

If I grab one of those ducks that are in a row and squeeze, I shall likely discover that ducks aren't always gentle and cute. It will bite and kick and quack up a storm. On the other hand, if I try to grab the row that they're putatively in, well, do you see a problem there?

I see the color white in all white objects. That's all there is to it. — TheMadFool

Arghhh! That is exactly what you do not do. First of all, what is "white"? Is white a one or a many, or is everything you see as white, the same white? And do you see them all simultaneously? I think not. But you see one, and attach a memory of what you think of as white. You see something else that reminds you, and you suppose them the same, and so on. That is, what you suppose you do, and admittedly what gets a certain amount of the world's work done, is not at all what happens. Not. At. All. Break it down, think it through.

That’s not a pattern. If you had a row of stones, 4 black, 1 white, repeating - then you’d have a pattern. ‘Whiteness’ in that sense is nearer to a Platonic universal. — Wayfarer

Repetition, either qualitative or quantitative, is a pattern.

I'm just going to throw some shit out there, and see what sticks — unenlightened

Very imaginative!

I see the color white in all white objects. That's all there is to it.
— TheMadFool
Arghhh! That is exactly what you do not do. First of all, what is "white"? Is white a one or a many, or is everything you see as white, the same white? And do you see them all simultaneously? I think not. But you see one, and attach a memory of what you think of as white. You see something else that reminds you, and you suppose them the same, and so on. That is, what you suppose you do, and admittedly what gets a certain amount of the world's work done, is not at all what happens. Not. At. All. Break it down, think it through. — tim wood

Let's not complicate the issue. Does your life have a routine, a pattern to it, or no? Before you answer that question, remember that if you say "no", your life would have to be completely random. In short, are you, as one poster remarked, predictable?

unless a gentlemanly decency had you omit — tim wood

I feel a pattern emerging...

It's getting late, but still worth a try. When you say repetition, I do not know what you mean in terms of the world that is. Nothing repeats. If repetition means anything, it is that you assign certain values to certain phenomena, that in sum you recollect as repetition. But nothing, in itself, repeated. Not even the sun coming up. That's the reality. What we do and think for convenience and utility something else, and not to be confused.

It's getting late, but still worth a try. When you say repetition, I do not know what you mean in terms of the world that is. Nothing repeats. If repetition means anything, it is that you assign certain values to certain phenomena, that in sum you recollect as repetition. But nothing, in itself, repeated. Not even the sun coming up. That's the reality. What we do and think for convenience and utility something else, and not to be confused. — tim wood

Nothing repeats? The sunrise, the tides, the seasons,..

Does your life have a routine, a pattern, to it or no? — TheMadFool

Do I have a mind that imposes all kinds of regularities and even some irregularities? You bet! Are they i the world? No. Exercise: next time you see a tree you're accustomed to thinking of as green, take a good look at it especially if there's a wind and see just how many colors you can discern, even that aren't green. And then ask yourself where your notion of green came from, exactly.

if you say "no", your life would have to be completely random. In short, are you, as one poster remarked, predictable? — TheMadFool

Different things here. Even if my life were predictable - whatever that means - do you imagine you or anyone else could predict it?

.

Nothing repeats? The sunrise, the tides, the seasons,.. — TheMadFool

If you cannot get that these are abstract idea.... Ok, let's assume the sunrise repeats, that is, repetition is something the sun does, and you merely notice it, and not that you impose it in any way. So what exactly does the sun do on this morning that it also did the morning before. Ans.: nothing. If you think it did, try listing a few, and save us both the trouble by testing them yourself. I think that with even just a little critical thinking you will soon enough cure yourself of the non-critical parish-pump idea that such things are "out there."

I’m taking issue with the claim in the OP which is much stronger than that. — Wayfarer

Clarify? I'll read.

Nothing repeats? The sunrise, the tides, the seasons,..
— TheMadFool
If you cannot get that these are abstract idea.... Ok, let's assume the sunrise repeats, that is, repetition is something the sun does, and you merely notice it, and not that you impose it in any way. So what exactly does the sun do on this morning that it also did the morning before. Ans.: nothing. If you think it did, try listing a few, and save us both the trouble by testing them yourself. I think that with even just a little critical thinking you will soon enough cure yourself of the non-critical parish-pump idea that such things are "out there." — tim wood

The sun rose yesterday just as it has for thousands of years before yesterday and it rose today too. Pattern: sunrise (repetition of an astronomical phenomenon).

Does your life have a routine, a pattern, to it or no?
— TheMadFool
Do I have a mind that imposes all kinds of regularities and even some irregularities? You bet! Are they i the world? No. Exercise: next time you see a tree you're accustomed to thinking of as green, take a good look at it especially if there's a wind and see just how many colors you can discern, even that aren't green. And then ask yourself where your notion of green came from, exactly.

if you say "no", your life would have to be completely random. In short, are you, as one poster remarked, predictable?
— TheMadFool
Different things here. Even if my life were predictable - whatever that means - do you imagine you or anyone else could predict it? — tim wood

So, there are no patterns. Nothing repeats. Then what is this: Born -> Infant -> Child -> Teen -> Adult -> Senior citizen -> Death

?

And how could it? The sun is different and in a different place, as is everything else. Nor even is the rising the same, it always in a different place and time. Everything different, nothing the same. Where is the repetition if not in your head as an abstract idea?

If you cannot get that these are abstract idea — tim wood

Definitions of abstract:

1. existing in thought or as an idea but not having a physical or concrete existence.

"abstract concepts such as love or beauty"


2. extract or remove (something).

"applications to abstract more water from streams"

We need to extract the pattern!

And how could it? The sun is different and in a different place, as is everything else. Nor even is the rising the same, it always in a different place and time. Everything different, nothing the same. Where is the repetition if not in your head as an abstract idea? — tim wood

You're missing the woods for the trees. It depends on how broad/narrow the definition of sunrise is. If you want the sun to come up at exactly the same spot every day, obviously there's no repetition but if you define sunrise as the sun popping up anywhere on the horizon, there's a pattern, a repetition.

Because to recognise a pattern is to simplify, and it is the thing that science and philosophy and literature and music all lean towards...

It is the very substance of the faculty of understanding,... It is surely what big brains are evolved to do. — unenlightened

I love the wisdom in this message. Purely Divine!
(And I will definitely quote you.)

The message resonates deeply with my understanding of what our lives are striving towards. For me, it is the basis of the ultimate goal (heaven, nirvana, enlightenment, perfection, etc, etc). We (and all components of life/existence) are notes (tones) arranged in space and time (akin to musical notes) and we can only achieve harmony if we understand our nature/character and position ourselves accordingly for the sake of the overall 'music'. Because, outside of the 'music', what significance is there? And, without proper positioning (discipline), what sense do we make (even to ourselves)?

You do realize there is no such thing as sunrise, yes? The sun does not rise. The earth turns, and it's all a more-complicated-than-generally-understood dance reduced poetically to a single term, sunrise. And that idea can repeat all you want.

I’m taking issue with the claim in the OP which is much stronger than that.
— Wayfarer
Clarify? I'll read. — tim wood

The claim is ‘pattern recognition is the essence of philosophy’. Big claim! And also reductionist, in my view - a ‘nothing but’ kind of claim. I don’t know if philosophy can be said to have an essence, although I’ll defer to Pierre Hadot’s definition of classical philosophy ¹.

So, as I say, I’m not saying patterns don’t exist in nature, as you seem to be doing. (Google it.) But I’m taking issue with the idea that everything comes down to or can be understood in terms of patterns.

Reason can discern relationships, causes, principles and patterns. But not all of the former can be reduced to the latter. I’m not a computer scientist, but I’m pretty sure that any pattern could be output by an algorithm, but that not all algorithms generate patterns.

I suppose I have to concede that the word ‘pattern’ is also used as a metaphor, like in a ‘pattern of behaviour’ or a ‘pattern of deceit’ and so on. But the essence of ‘pattern’ is ‘a repeated design’ and as such it’s not a kind of supreme explanatory metaphor.
———————-

1. ‘ The goal of the ancient philosophies was to cultivate a specific, constant attitude toward existence, by way of the rational comprehension of the nature of humanity and its place in the cosmos.’

You do realize there is no such thing as sunrise, yes? The sun does not rise. The earth turns, and it's all a more-complicated-than-generally-understood dance reduced poetically to a single term, sunrise. And that idea can repeat all you want. — tim wood

Red herring, my favorite!

But I’m taking issue with the idea that everything comes down to or can be understood in terms of patterns. — Wayfarer

I don’t know if philosophy can be said to have an essence — Wayfarer

Essence = Pattern

Definition of essence:  the properties or attributes by means of which something can be placed in its proper class or identified as being what it is.

Definition of pattern: a repeated (decorative design).

Ring any bells?

Population thinking:

According to Ernst Mayr, population thinking is a metaphysical theory. Mayr's essentialism, amounts to the view that types, including conceptual categories, are real while individual variation is illusionary. In contrast, population thinking entails the opposite view: Types are not real in nature, only individuals exist. According to Sober, the explanatory goal for essentialists is to find an underlying order that unites and underlies the variation one sees in nature. Population thinking as a methodological doctrine states that regularities that occur in populations such as extinction, speciation, and adaptation emerge from the collective activities of individuals. — Andre Ariew (Oxford Handbook of Biology)

If we expand population thinking to events, then regularities that occur in events such as the sun rising emerge from collectively perceived potential/significance of individual events. Patterns are not real in nature, only individual events exist. It is language concepts, then, that reify patterns such as ‘the sun rising’.

Population thinking:

According to Ernst Mayr, population thinking is a metaphysical theory. Mayr's essentialism, amounts to the view that types, including conceptual categories, are real while individual variation is illusionary. In contrast, population thinking entails the opposite view: Types are not real in nature, only individuals exist. According to Sober, the explanatory goal for essentialists is to find an underlying order that unites and underlies the variation one sees in nature. Population thinking as a methodological doctrine states that regularities that occur in populations such as extinction, speciation, and adaptation emerge from the collective activities of individuals.
— Andre Ariew (Oxford Handbook of Biology)

If we expand population thinking to events, then regularities that occur in events such as the sun rising emerge from collectively perceived potential/significance of individual events. Patterns are not real in nature, only individual events exist. It is language concepts, then, that reify patterns such as ‘the sun rising’. — Possibility

@tim wood

I maybe completely off the mark here but doesn't all that amount to saying patterns are basically hallucinations - our minds quite literally seeing what isn't there? Are there no patterns at all? :point: paraedolia?

Nothing repeats — tim wood

What about the auto-repeat on my record-player? It makes the LP play untill Im deda or dead (which might not take too long). What about births of children? Keep on repeating. What about me taking meth every morning? Repeats itself. What about life appearing after the next big bang? It repeats exactly if lucky. Or unlucky. What about quarks and leptons, being exact repetitions of of one another. What about you saying the same things every time, ending up in the same patterns every time? ☺

I thought the quote was relevant given the statement “Essence = Pattern”

Personally, I think there’s a difference between saying that there are no patterns ‘out there’ and saying that patterns don’t exist. A pattern exists as a property or quality of a relation: a relative regularity. This pattern would dissolve the moment the event deviates from predictions. When we (used to) travel across the globe, the event of ‘the sun rising’ would deviate from qualitative predictions. Timezones help us to re-conceptualise a relative regularity in a new location.