A lot more should be included! :grin:Two points I think should be included. — NOS4A2
I agree. I have read Nietzsche (extensively) quite a long time ago, so it is useless to consult my memory about him and his philosopy! But I remember well Krishnamurti's teaching: "The observer is the observed". Which I think is related to your "doer" and the "deed". But the "human organism" and the involvement of the brain in all this spoils things for me! :smile:We cannot separate the doer from the deed. ... Both the thinking being and that which is thought is the human organism — NOS4A2
If you think like that then you mean to say that the information accessible to us is insufficient to conclude the presence of consciousness. So, here I am, talking to my friend and his conduct is identical in important respects to mine - he talks, acts just like me - and I, from that, make the following analogical inference:
1. I talk, act, initiate, respond in certain ways and I'm conscious.
2. My friend also does talk, act, initiate, respond in the same way as I do.
Ergo,
3. My friend is conscious. — TheMadFool
Now, if I'm to doubt my argument from analogy above, there must be a relevant dissimilarity between my friend and me. If none can be found, the argument is cogent and I, perforce, must accept that my friend, like me, is too conscious.
Coming to AI, we seem reluctant to follow the same logic i.e. the following intriguing scenario is the case for AI:
4. I talk, act, initiate, respond in certain ways and I'm conscious.
5. An AI does act, initiate, respond in the same way as I do.
BUT...
6. I hesitate to conclude the AI is conscious.
We're trying to eat the cake and have it too. If you have doubts about the AI being conscious, this uncertainty automatically extends to your friend too and, conversely, if you believe your friend's conscious, the AI must also be conscious!
Something about the evidence for consciousness is problematic. Either we believe it can be mimicked perfectly in which case there's no difference between your friend and a p-zombie and nonphysicalism is true or it can't be and AI that pass the Turing test are truly conscious.
Matter is much stranger than how it appears to common sense. Common sense tells us to think of matter in terms of solid, indestructible stuff. But this kind of matter is not the matter that exists in the world. In fact, "solid" stuff, is by far, much more rare than non-solid matter. — Manuel
A good deal of physics is trying to figure out how a few particles colliding could create certain strange effects. But if you consider a brain, you are speaking of billions of particles and a more complicated science, like biology — Manuel
"Brainists" totally outnumber "Non-brainists". — Alkis Piskas
So could that be an indication that our brain's "matter" also is much more than what we can perceive? — dimosthenis9
So at the end is brain the only thing which gets involved in thinking? As NOS4A2 mentioned, at the end can brain "think" without heart, lungs etc?? For me seems kind of strange to separate mind (thinking etc) from all of the rest of the body. — dimosthenis9
Your approach is really different and interesting. — dimosthenis9
If you include technology to perception, I think there are good reasons to suspect that there is more to the universe than what we can reveal about the world. We are human beings, not all-knowing creatures like God or something like that. So there must be a limit in what our senses and intellect tells us about the world. — Manuel
It is difficult, it's almost impossible to get behind our ordinary intuitions which have been built-in to our mode of thinking for who knows how long. — Manuel
I created this topic to see whether philosophical thinkers, like (most) TPFers, are "stuck" and obsessed (as you say) with the brain as almost everyone else in our culture. Indeed, Science --with all that it carries with and is implied by it: materialism, physicalism, monism, etc.-- is too strong, much stronger than "God". Well, I suspected the result, but I hoped it wouldn't be true. — Alkis Piskas
How do you figure that? (Airplanes don't make bird's wings unnecessary.) Examples of 'minds' without brains (CNS) please — 180 Proof
Can you please also bring in my quote that you are referring to? Thanks.Matter is much stranger than how it appears to common sense — Manuel
We may have them now. How would we know? They'd be too smart to pass a Turing Test and "out" themselves. Watch the movie Ex Machina and take note of the ending. If the Singularity can happen, maybe it's already happened (c1990) and the Dark Web is AIs' "Fortress of Solitude", until ... :victory: :nerd: — 180 Proof
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