What part of the memorty this is? — Alkis Piskas

Memories dont exist.

Not only is a specific thought based on a specific brain state, but failure to a grasp a specific thought is a failure to assemble a specific brain state — Mark Nyquist

Right! Though it must be said that thoughts can go on unconsciously. You can sometimes wake up with a solution for a problem you have been thinking about. Likewise, we dont notice everything going on in the physical world.

I use this when I want to learn something new. It's usually difficult until you reach a point where it's easy. It maybe involves training new neural pathways.

the appearance of that physical world is mind-dependent — Prishon

So the physical world is mathematical and the appearance is experimental physics?

So the physical world is mathematical and the appearance is experimental physics? — magritte

Prishon says no. Physical world is material side. Appearance is the "magical", "essence essential" construction of material part of the trinity. The magical part expires in inner world of Prishon. Inner world make physical world appear. Prishon in between! Before animals walked or swimmed or crawled or fly, all was one. The trinity was one. Then one trinity shifted. To two worlds with Rishon or mama in between. All animal came to be in between. When Prishon dead Prishin one trinity again. No shift anymore.Mathemati just in Prishon inside. Experiment is done on outside of Prishon. But some people have looked in Prishon head! Prishon no like!

Physical world is material side. Appearance is the "magical", "essence essential" construction of material part — Prishon

By what means can any of these be related? How does Prishon's physical world relate to Prishon's material world, can they really be the same, as in 'is', or is the magical essence the only intermediary for reconstruction?

Prishon say: good question! Prishon is in between. Physical side of trinity is coming alive through eyes of Prishon. Physical side tickles inside world of Prishon. Tickles magical trinity part that blossoms in inside world of Prishon. How trinity know to be magical part inside, and physical material part of trinity outside? Prishon is the unshifted trinity form. Or better the unshifted matter and essence in matter. Who knows true Nature of matter? Prishon does not know. But Prishon can FEEL the magic essence of matter. Prishon liky liky magical stuff. Likes to feel and see and hear and think. And dance. Prishon is not brain. Prishon is person, body with eyes and ears and feet! Thats why Prishon like dance! And music. And think. Inner world of Prishon now hurts. Inner world of Prishon has think too much. Says dont want to think anymore. But Prishon dont listen! Prishon wants brain to think!

Jesus! Enough now Prishon. Im not sure I understood you question correctly. What do you mean with my material world? And with the physical world?

Believe it or not, an old friend of mine had very similar thoughts! He spent his life trying to relate those ideas without much success. But he died happily knowing that the next time he comes back freshly reincarnated he will return with more clues to further his quest. He is not back yet. I hope he isn't now a giraffe or something.

hope he isn't now a giraffe or something — magritte

Maybe it's me. Was his name Wiliam? No, coming to think of it...I believe too in reincarnation. But in a next universe... So... It cant be me. ☺

I love that painting by the way. He was philosophical! I did a copy once of the minds eye. With thunder and lightning instead of blue with clouds..

The brains in a jar are impossible in principle. — Prishon

Yes, of course, but that is an old, tried and true device used by philosophers to illustrate certain points of truth.

The "inner world" does not reflect the truth of the "outer world
— Michael Zwingli

I dont agree. Why not? — Prishon

I notice that I should have said "...does not always reflect the truth of..." Indeed, much of the time our inner world does accurately reflect most aspects of objective reality, but not always. What I mean by this is that human perceptions of reality are always interpretations of the aspects of reality, but are not necessarily true reflections of the realities themselves.

This is most apparent in certain examples. When I look at a blue sky, a red traffic "stop sign" or a verdantly green meadow, I interpret that I see colors. The colors of my mental interpretations, though, do not really exist, but are merely the way in which my sense of sight in concert with the functioning of my brain interpret the differing wavelengths of the same type of light radiation. People once thought surely that the sun moved around the earth, and across the diurnal sky, daily; this was what their interpretation of their sensory experience of physical reality indicated to them. Now, with the benefit of scientific discovery and technological innovation, we have come to know differently, so that when we see the sun "setting", we now think of the earth rotating on its axis. In like manner, people were at one time sure of the "fact" of human race, that all people on Earth could be shoehorned into one of three "racial categories": mongoloid, negroid, or caucasoid. With the broader view that we have of the world's people's today, though, we can now see that trying to assign or segregate human beings into racial categories defies the reality of a broad spectrum of physical types, many of which do not fit the old categories, and that indeed, the entire concept of human race might just be fallacious to begin with. Before Neo began to realize his innate potential, he thought that the virtual world programmed by machine AI and transmitted directly into his CNS was reality, but then he began to develop his ability to "see the Matrix".

Such examples illustrate that our subjective human perceptions of reality do not always reflect the truth of objective reality. In truth, I'm not so sure that I would want them to. Perhaps our common subjective experiences in creating a "world" are what have enabled us as a species to relate to the universe in ways constructive enough for us to be as successful as we have been. I'm not entirely sure that I would want to be able to "see the Matrix".

Alkis, let me try to address some of your critiques of my rambling post of earlier.

some memory seems to be stored in cells/tissues outside of the brain, in other parts of the body
— Michael Zwingli
What part of the memorty this is? Where is the remaining memory? You don't mention anything else about memory. Well, these are rhetorical questions, so you don't have to reply because they belong to some other topic. — Alkis Piskas

The vast bulk of memory is stored within the brain. Differing aspects of memory are stored in different parts of the brain. Certain "procedural memories" are stored in the basal ganglia. The major areas involved in the storage of memories are the prefrontal cortex, and the hippocampus. Even so, neuroscientists have been able to make experimental subjects experience memories by stimulation of certain tissues of the body. See here:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_memory

it can only be said that the person, rather than the brain, is thinking, because our thoughts are highly dependent upon the state of our bodies and are continuously effected by neurally transmitted information from our bodies.
— Michael Zwingli
most thought, including all rational thought, interpretative thought and emotive thought, occurs as a result of brain activity
— Michael Zwingli
Aren't these two statements-positions in conflict? — Alkis Piskas

I think not. Many of the thoughts produced by the brain are engendered by sensory input from the body. Without that sensory input, many human thoughts would not come into being, and the inner "world" that is the sum total of an individual human's thoughts would be very different. While the generation of thoughts occurs within the brain, the impetus for said generation generally comes from the body, thus it is the person as a biological whole who is the thinker...

This is not the same as saying that thought occurs "within the brain", though.
— Michael Zwingli
It is, therefore, not wrong to say that thought "occurs in the brain"
— Michael Zwingli
Again, aren't these two statements-positions in conflict? — Alkis Piskas

You forgot to include the complementary clause to the second of my statements, which changes the nature of the assertion:

, but that statement seems to deny the full picture of the human experience of thought. — Michael Zwingli

Thoughts are compulsed by the body, and generated within the brain, but are experienced by the person as a whole, as he has emotional and physiological reactions to said thoughts. Don't you think?

Sorry you didn't understand it. — Mark Nyquist

This sounds like feeling pity for me for not being able to understand it ... But I guess you actually mean, "Sorry I didn't explain that well" or something like that, right?

As for the "brain states" you are mentioning that we are all supposed to know about and understand:

"Philosophers have been talking about brain states for almost 50 years and as of yet no one has articulated a theoretical account of what one is. In fact this issue has received almost no attention and cognitive scientists still use meaningless phrases like ‘C-fiber firing’ and ‘neuronal activity’ when theorizing about the relation of the mind to the brain." (https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/09515080600923271)

This sounds like feeling pity for me for not being able to understand it ... But I guess you actually mean, "Sorry I didn't explain that well" or something like that, right? — Alkis Piskas

:up: :up:

(there isnt a righthand one. The right one...)

What part of the memory this is?
— Alkis Piskas
Memories dont exist. — Prishon

My question was addressed to @Michael Zwingli, who said "some memory seems to be stored in cells/tissues outside of the brain, in other parts of the body" (https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/586765) ... So, it would be better if you addressed your comment directly to him. Except of course if your comment was actually addressed to me as from a independent, third party. (I think this is most probably the case! :smile:)

BTW, the subject was "memory" (mental faculty and system), not "memories" (mental images etc, things that we remember from the past), although these two are related of course.

Thanks for your expressed agreement. :smile:
But where is your comment about "a righthand one" addressed to? For one thing, I know I have not and could not say that ...

But where is your comment about "a righthand one" addressed to? For one thing, I know I have not and could not say that ... — Alkis Piskas

Oh! Dont look for a lot! The thumb is a lefthand hand thumb (you cant choose! Discriminating!). The right one is just wordplay (is there a nice word for wordplay, by the way?). :smile:

OK. I took it as a correction of a mistaken English expression! :smile:

Some memory seems to be stored in cells/tissues outside of the brain, in other parts of the body

This was a statement made by @MichaelZwingly. There are no memories stored. Only connective strengths to enable memories to flow. And they are flowing continuously. Conscious or not. The central nervous system radiates into the body, so...

It was given as a "brain fact" in a program for children that the brain has a storage capacity of 20 000 Gb... No brain fact!

↪Prishon
OK. I took it as a correction of a mistaken English expression! :smile: — Alkis Piskas

The brain...

This what one of the things a thought (thinking) can do. It can create energy in the form of emotions (waves) that you can feel in your body. The more "negative" these emotions are, the more dense is the energy felt in the body. It can be so dense so as to create a mass: intense anxiety produces adrenaline. — Alkis Piskas

Philosophy is so easy. Can't see what the fuss is about.

address some of your critiques — Michael Zwingli

I have not made any critique or criticized your post. I only poinpointed some conflicts. And, in fact, as questions, not even as assertions or facts. I have to clear this, and I consider it important, because otherwise our discussion will contain negative elements, which are obtacles to communication and thus undestanding.

The vast bulk of memory is stored within the brain — Michael Zwingli

I see. OK. (This could not be inferred from the rest of your post ...)

Many of the thoughts produced by the brain are engendered by sensory input from the body. — Michael Zwingli

But ... Haven't you started your post by saying "it can only be said that the person, rather than the brain, is thinking ... "? These are evidently in conflict (not a question, but an assertion this time! :smile:) Well, except if you differentiate between "thought" and "thinking", which are generally considered as the same thing. (Except when "thought" is used with the meaning of an independent image or other recollection of the memory. But even in this case, it is part of the thinking process.)

Listen, I can't go on questioning things you say, because my intention and purpose is really to undesrand your position(s) on the subject and certainly not to criticize you. But it looks like I fail on this. So, you can consider this as my problem.

Thanks for the exchange! :smile:

There are no memories stored. — Prishon

It seems that you insist bringing up the statement "some memory seems to be stored in cells/tissues outside of the brain, in other parts of the body" as if I have said that! I could never, never say such a thing. this was said by @Michael Zwingli!

So, I would like please to disconnect this statement from my name! Really, it is unfair, embarassing and annoying! Thank you.

So, I would like please to disconnect this statement from my name! Really, it is unfair, embarassing and annoying! Thank you. — Alkis Piskas

I corrected. Thanks for making me know. I thought you were a opponent of stored memories.

Philosophy is so easy. Can't see what the fuss is about. — Banno

What fuss? Where?

Thinking is done by and in the mind. The mind is not the brain. The mind is a communication and control system between the spirit (soul) and its environment. In order to achieve this, it uses the brain. One way in which this is done is by thinking. Thought has no mass or energy --so it is not part of the physical universe-- but it can produce mass and energy. This mass and energy is transmitted as signals and/or waves to the brain. The brain then process them and according to their kind, it sends itself signals and/or waves through neurons to the remaining body or as feedback, back to the mind. — Alkis Piskas

"The mind is a communication and control system between the spirit (soul) and its environment"

Its the body thats between the soirit and the environment.

"The mind is not the brain"

Correct. But its inside the brain (central nervous system radiating out to the body.

"In order to achieve this" (communication between the two worlds) ", it uses the brain."

The body is used for this. The true you.

"One way in which this is done is by thinking. Thought has no mass or energy --so it is not part of the physical universe-- but it can produce mass and energy. This mass and energy is transmitted as signals and/or waves to the brain. The brain then process them and according to their kind, it sends itself signals and/or waves through neurons to the remaining body or as feedback, back to the mind"

Thoughts have a mass as well as an essence, though in the inner world only the essence is seen and felt or heard.
It can produce energy in the body to express itself by language, be it spoken, screamed, or bodily language.

I corrected. Thanks for making me know. — Prishon

OK.

I thought you were a oroponent of stored memories. — Prishon

What kind of an opponent is that? Who is against stored memories?

BTW, I already mentioned that there's a difference bwtween "memory" and "memories". The following may be more helpful:
"Memory" from Dictionary.com:
"1. The mental capacity or faculty of retaining and reviving facts, events, impressions, etc., or of recalling or recognizing previous experiences."
5. A mental impression retained; a recollection."

We talk about the "human memory", "I have a bad memory", etc. And we talk about "childhood memories". Unfortunately this is a problem in English. In Greek, we have two distinct word structures: "mnimi" (= memory) and "anamniseis" (= memories). (Some of course, as in every language that has been distorted with time, use "mnimes" (in plural) to mean memories. But it's wrong. In English it is correct! :smile:

I have not made any critique or criticized your post. — Alkis Piskas

Hahaha...fair enough, but please don't be afraid to actually criticize my statements. After all, somebody needs to check my thinking, lest (my head having a bothersome tendency to swell, unchecked) this "funny monkey" begin to think himself more and more...

The good thing about not being a "professional" philosopher, is that being occasionally wrong need not engender an occasional existential crisis. Being wrong in my case usually just engenders a shrug. I know this because I can remember once thinking that I was wrong, but later found out that I was mistaken...:wink:

Its the body thats between the spirit and the environment. — Prishon

Well, bodies are already part of the environment, the physical world, aren't they? If so, they cannot be between something and the environment, can they? Maybe you think of your body as something separate from the environment. But what about the other bodies that you see around? Do you also think of them as separate from the environment, the physical world?

The body is used for this [communication]. The true you. — Prishon

You are your hands and your feet? Are these the true you? What will happen if one or more members of the body are cut off of person? He would not have a YOU anymore? What about totally paralyzed people who can still communicate very well? They don't have a true self?

don't be afraid to actually criticize my statements — Michael Zwingli

Thank you for letting me criticize your statements. It's very generous of you! :grin: But I never do that, except if I have a good reason to. Not the case! :smile:

Well, bodies are already part of the environment, the physical world, aren't they? — Alkis Piskas

I dont think so. Whats around my body is my environment.

You are your hands and your feet? — Alkis Piskas

Not only that. I am my legs, mu face, my back that itches for which I use a found stick to scratch, my nose, my ears, my belly, my toes, etc. That all is the true me. All things happening in the brain are part of an inner world, like the sun is part of the physical world outside, the outer world. Whats wrong with being a body?

"Rishon says its nice what says Rishon. But what mean trinity? Rishon can xplain? "

Yes Rishon, Rishon can but there is magic too.

"Rishon ask, what is magic? Magic evil man? Magic nice man? Magic likey likey Rishon?"

Yes Rishon, you will like magic.

"Why Rishon liky likey magic"

You just like it Rishon.