I don't see how it's being a role prevents me playing it, or prevents anyone else from responding to it in kind. — Isaac
if determinism is true, then beliefs are not rationally, but causally, determined. — Janus
One's opinion will be formed, in large part, by the opinion which is used as a membership token for the social groups to which one wishes to belong, or the social roles one plays. — Isaac
Our beliefs are objective only if arrived at through reason.
2. If our beliefs are caused then they are not arrived at through reason.
Therefore
3. If our beliefs are caused, then they are not objective.
Is that the argument? I mean, (2) is clearly true, but what's the justification for (1)? Why isn't (1) something more like "Our beliefs are only objective if supported by reason"? or — Srap Tasmaner
We just shouldn't get caught up in the social exercise of what is a private function. — Isaac
You may well review and revise your stories, select others which fit better or feel more satisfying, these may well lead to better actions in the future. That's not the necessarily same thing as you engaging in the social game of review and revision. — Isaac
This is the quandary - if you accept that beliefs that are caused are not arrived at by reason, you have no way of knowing whether they happen to also be reasonable.
So, (1) I believe the earth is round based upon causality, and (2) there are objective reasons to believe the earth is round. How do I ever know #2, given #1? All I have access to is #1. — Hanover
On the other hand, I have a whole different compatibility approach that acknowledges two different frameworks for describing our thoughts, — Srap Tasmaner
There is far more to rationality than mere logic. — Janus
Many, hopefully most, form their opinion based upon a fidelity to finding the truth. — Hanover
To the extent you argue opinion is controlled by forces beyond your control, your argument ceases to have persuasive value because it admits to not being based upon truth and it denies my responses are based upon truth. — Hanover
The sometimes violent peer division you've identified isn't a complex sociological and psychological matter that just naturally exists within each of us, but it is the outcome of a nefarious and intentional political effort to polarize and divide the population to acquire political power. That there is such division over such minor requests like wearing masks and getting an FDA approved vaccine (and the unadulterated bullshit of the "stolen" election) speaks to the power of our power seekers in creating camps and securing votes. It needn't be this way. — Hanover
We just shouldn't get caught up in the social exercise of what is a private function. — Isaac
This I think I need a little clarification on. -- I have thoughts, but it's easier to ask. — Srap Tasmaner
Even in cases where the two processes are naturally related -- as in a philosophical discussion -- they are not the same process, can't be the same process, aren't even the same kind of process. — Srap Tasmaner
We are still interested in how people form and revise their beliefs, but on a separate track we're interested in how people discuss their beliefs, and we're interested in the nexus of the two but without assuming there's just a sort of wave of reason that passes through groups of people causing each of them to speak in turn and enlightening the rest. — Srap Tasmaner
I have some worries I suspect we're about to get to. — Srap Tasmaner
It might be best to go back to the coronavirus example to clarify what we're up to. — Srap Tasmaner
I have some sympathy with this view, at least if we dial back the optimality a little and just assume we're learning organisms that get better at being rational, something like that. — Srap Tasmaner
The groups which can go ahead with the booster shot against COVID-19 have been determined by the Health Ministry and include those living and working in nursing homes, those aged 65 and over, health professionals and those who are immunosuppressed and or are immunodeficient.
And how do they go about doing that? Is it 'true' that abortion is unacceptable after six weeks, or is it 'false'? What on earth would true and false mean in this context and how would we go about pinning down only one version of it? — Isaac
It doesn't have to admit it. Advertisers have a good deal of success getting people to wear believe Nike trainers are better than any other brand. Did they need to appeal to universal truth to do that? Or did they need to get a few famous sports celebrities to wear Nike? — Isaac
Really? So the 'power seekers' are the ones spreading the anti-vax message among otherwise sensible scientists, while the poor powerless government and pharmaceutical industry just want everyone to be happy? Who are these devils? Name names man, they need to be held to account. — Isaac
the inquiry here has been of factual ones (i.e. the effectiveness of vaccines). — Hanover
here in a philosophy forum where you would want to be persuasive, fidelity to the truth would be the way you would sway others. — Hanover
a politician unapologetically and openly makes it his primary focus to obtain power. — Hanover
I see no evidence of that. I've provided more citations from properly qualified experts than any other poster and most contrary responses have been half-arsed clichés of reactionary defensiveness or outright spittle-flecked invective. How is that representative of a community in search of truth? — Isaac
Sometimes it just happens sort of organically. Giles the Goat Boy has a vision of the Virgin Mary giving him a hand job in heaven, and the next thing you know the whole town is naked and burning down the Jewish quarter. — James Riley
If the pharmaceutical companies are predominately motivated by profit, that would nonetheless be irrelevant to the question as to whether the vaccines are safe and effective and whether mass vaccination is the only or at least the best strategy available to us. — Janus
If reason is merely a part of the determinant nexus of events, that is if it is fully determined by other non-rational physical events, then it is not uniquely self-determining in the way we intuitively think it is. — Janus
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