It's not just that.Anti-Vaxxers, Creationists, 9/11 Truthers, Climate Deniers, Flat-Earthers, Covid-19 deniers, et al have the specifics of their quirky views tied to deeper fundamentals. Those who found a home for all their various resentments in the person of Donald Trump can't change their views about vaccinations for the virus. Election fraud and disease hoax are welded together. Getting vaccinated is tantamount to accepting that there was no fraud in the 2020 election. — Bitter Crank
Do you know of an example that isn't in the context of a military operation? Your analysis is correct; I'm making the assumption that devaluing groups is inherently a bad decision. The exception of "so I don't mind killing them" doesn't carry the same weight with a civilian. I'm sure I'm making a dogmatic error somewhere, but I haven't located an example where devaluing a group of people was the solution.In fact, I was not saying you are wrong, only that your beliefs about my position were unduly influenced by your assumption that devaluation is inherently bad or only used for bad (and should thus be avoided). I was not saying it was bad or good; only that it is not inherently bad. — James Riley
it goes both ways. — Srap Tasmaner
Taking the 'high road' in the moment looks like weakness, but we forget it's a choice. It is often frustrating to play by the rules while the opponent would cheat at every turn. — Cheshire
This is true, but in the American culture war, if that's part of the topic here, it goes both ways. — Srap Tasmaner
Do you know of an example that isn't in the context of a military operation? Your analysis is correct; I'm making the assumption that devaluing groups is inherently a bad decision. The exception of "so I don't mind killing them" doesn't carry the same weight with a civilian. I'm sure I'm making a dogmatic error somewhere, but I haven't located an example where devaluing a group of people was the solution. — Cheshire
But the pro-vaccers are trying to present their contempt as justified, — baker
Intuitively, dehumanization seems like the extreme result of devaluation. I'm sure you have a reasonable threshold, but I don't see them as different types of activities.However, you have entirely missed my distinction between devaluation and dehumanization when you say "so I don't mind killing them." — James Riley
I disagree with them, but I don't see a need to devalue them. I need people that disagree with me in order to improve my ideas. A world where everyone agrees would eliminate this activity.I do know of an example and I lead with it: Trumpettes/Republicans. — James Riley
Every human organization, endeavor, or product will be subject to human error. If I devalue everyone subject to error, then I devalue myself.If you want a non-military example of the benefit of devaluing a group of people, see every party in every election. — James Riley
I share the sentiment with regard to the struggle in today's landscape. Taking the 'high road' in the moment looks like weakness, but we forget it's a choice. It is often frustrating to play by the rules while the opponent would cheat at every turn. — Cheshire
Nah, I don't judge you either.They can dish it out but they can't take it. This kind of attitude, of mine, expressed here aggressively, is then used by them as they cry to mommy, the reasonable mediator (you?) about how bad people like me are. Don't fall for it. They'll be right back to slinging shit and being bully's once they get their way. — James Riley
contempt.
In this context, I find that thought a bit chilling. — Srap Tasmaner
If you try to engage someone whom you believe to be irrational, then you are the one who is irrational, and at fault.My question is whether we should engage with them -- assuming I'm correct about their irrationality. — Xtrix
Unless you're a high politician or otherwise influential, this question is beside the point, you're just spinning your wheels, wasting time that would better be spent otherwise.Here's part of the problem, for me: is time better spent organizing/mobilizing those who agree, or perhaps with those who are "on the fence"/ those who are more persuadable, who really just want to understand the issue and weight the evidence?
dehumanization seems like the extreme result of devaluation. — Cheshire
I disagree with them, but I don't see a need to devalue them. I need people that disagree with me in order to improve my ideas. A world where everyone agrees would eliminate this activity. — Cheshire
Every human organization, endeavor, or product will be subject to human error. If I devalue everyone subject to error, then I devalue myself. — Cheshire
I'm confident everyone being intolerant about everything isn't it. — Srap Tasmaner
You have not demonstrated goodwill toward them, and that's why they don't listen to you. — baker
You just expect others to be other than they are, as if they owed you that. — baker
Notice your use of the word "every", "everyone". Take it down a notch. That is extreme. If you see the world in such extremes, it is no wonder you can't appreciate the nuance of relative value. — James Riley
Nah, I don't judge you either. — Cheshire
It's more mundane than that. Imagine if you were to boycott the products and services provided by anyone who isn't particularly enthusiastic about vaccination. You'd be hungry, cold, homeless, and naked.I need people that disagree with me in order to improve my ideas. — Cheshire
Suppose hypothetically I place a low value on a human and then fail to realize when they produce a good idea. It's only to my detriment.Go ahead and judge. It's human. Value, it's human. — James Riley
It's a rare deliberate use of a universal. All human knowledge is subject to unknown errors. It's assumed to be undeniable as the basis of critical rationalism; until critical rationalism is shown to be an error. — Cheshire
Suppose hypothetically I place a low value on a human and then fail realize when they produce a good idea. It's only to my detriment. — Cheshire
I don't even know what that meant in the context of our discussion. — James Riley
The position I'm putting forward is the attitude of critical rationalism. To see every person as a source of knowledge for the sake of working closer to the truth. Devaluing people is counter this particular philosophy. — Cheshire
People get persuaded by goodwill, not by arguments, nor by force. — baker
Working, raising a family, gardening, reading and finding humor in many things needn't necessarily be done in an effort of looking for happiness outside.My point is that as long as one is looking for happiness outside, one is going to be faced with an endless amount of problems.
— baker
Well, I never took you for an optimist. This reads like early Woody Allen.
And yet despite everything you say there I have known many people who are happy and found happiness readily achievable. And they weren't rich or powerful. They just went about their business taking an interest in some matters and not others, working, raising a family, gardening, reading and finding humor in many things. And sure, it's hard to do this is a warzone or when sick, but frankly it isn't impossible. — Tom Storm
Then, once the left stands up on it's hind legs and starts bringing them some of their own shit, they all of a sudden starting crying foul. Fuck them. And the gurney they are rolled in on. — James Riley
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