Apo has a neo-Hegelian tone that is too convenient; dialectic and pragmatism seem odd bedfellows. We had a long discussion years ago in which he insisted that Mount Everest did not have a height until it was actually measured. Olivier5 seems to think something similar when he proposes that facts are observations. — Banno
Introducing QM to a thread is a surefire way to ensure it goes for another twenty pages without being at all helpful. — Banno
Well, I am. It might help ↪tim wood if he is able to say that Kelly-Anne Conway is wrong. That's harder to do if you are going to maintain that its belief that counts, not truth. — Banno
I reject the notion that the height of the mount came into existence only when the observation was made. — Banno
I think Trump has shown that it's not facts or truth that matter, it's belief. If you can't convince people, get them to believe, that you're right, you might as well not be. Perhaps you'll get some satisfaction so you and your political buddies can rant, rave, and feel superior, but it doesn't mean anything in terms of doing what politics is supposed to do - govern. — T Clark
You're right, TC, but what hope for us all if politics, on whatever side, becomes immune to facts and will only accept and disseminate beliefs of increasing bizarreness? There's work to be done. — Tom Storm
But if the counter to lies is just alternate belief, what's the point?
Isn't the point that the election was fair, vaccines do save lives, climate change is man-made?
If you start from the premise that truth doesn't matter, you've already lost. — Banno
Good question. If you've been cavalier and indiscriminate in understanding and use of "fact/belief/knowledge/truth" then how are you gong to decide? — tim wood
If we can't work with people we disagree with strongly to work out a way forward, we can have a great feeling of satisfaction about being right while the country goes down the fucking toilet. — T Clark
I'm saying that Trump is wrong, that truth matters; we can add to that questions of strategy aimed at convincing others, but again, if you begin by agreeing with Trump, you've lost.I think Trump has shown that it's not facts or truth that matter, — T Clark
And then there's yanking Everest out of its background, etc.If we didn't have the concept of height, there'd be no way for us to say anything about the height of Everest -- what that height is, that it has one, or doesn't, nothing. That is a tiny, tiny sliver of what the other side in this wants. — Srap Tasmaner
But we can also say this: given our concept of height, it makes no sense to talk about Everest not having one. Everest having a height -- as you say, Banno, a single specific height -- is built into our concept of height. — Srap Tasmaner
The definiteness bit also implies that there can be a fact about the height of Everest -- and must be! -- but there can't be a fact about whether something is funny. (For other quite different cultures there might be facts about humor, but it will be obvious that their concept of funny works differently from ours.) And that's not only a matter of our concepts -- not just, we might say, a "fact about us" -- because not just anything gets a height, only Everest sorts of things. So there's that too. — Srap Tasmaner
Isn't the point that the election was fair, vaccines do save lives, climate change is man-made?
If you start from the premise that truth doesn't matter, you've already lost. — Banno
In science decision making, 'fact' can only mean 'confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent.' — T Clark
I said what I believe is true doesn't matter if we can't convince others. — T Clark
And let what we do be based on the facts; then it will be worth doing.Perhaps the ultimate point, though, is what we do. — Zugzwang
Truth will out. — Banno
I like "Reality bites back." (No doubt because it doesn't care about your feelings...) — Srap Tasmaner
I suppose we ought to have a word for the opposite of reification, something like "nebulation", Banno's foe in this thread: the blurring of edges and misting over of shape to reduce definiteness so there aren't any facts anymore to worry about. — Srap Tasmaner
(I confess to being enough of an analytic that I never met a distinction I wanted to elide.) — Srap Tasmaner
The first occurrence of fact as truth or reality is dated at 1581, well pre-dating your supposition that it derives from17th century empiricism. (SOED) (Edit: on checking the OED, the date is "1632 — Banno
The upshot is that the sense is in a state of flux. Nevertheless we can maintain a distinction between what is the case, and what is believed to be the case; and mark this distinction with care by distinguishing fact from belief. — Banno
he insisted that Mount Everest did not have a height until it was actually measured. Olivier5 seems to think something similar when he proposes that facts are observations. — Banno
Perhaps it could be translated as 'a fact is the kind of statement that all us reasonable people consider true, for now.' A more 'behaviorist' rendition might be ' a fact articulates a state of affairs that we seem to take for granted and rely on in our serious business.' — Zugzwang
This indicates another interesting distinction between facts and doubt: facts are beyond reasonable doubt. This is what T Clark meant I suppose. — Olivier5
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