Eusociality (of a eusocial species like humans) comes first, religion is only a by-product. :eyes:Religion comes first, morality is only a by-product. — Anand-Haqq
how it’s okay for morality to be subjective — Franz Liszt
Certainly there is no universally agree-upon morality, just like it's not universally agreed-upon that the Earth is not flat and yet the Earth is objectively round. In this case, if "there is no objective morality, tell me what this (link is below) defense of ethical naturalism gets wrong. Much obliged.My 2 cents - there is no objective morality ... — stoicHoneyBadger
We want a harmonious society, peace, zero crime, happiness for all, and so on. — TheMadFool
About where morality comes from, I would say mostly from our "will to power", our instincts choose a version of morality that gives us the best chances to winning. A strong person would use strength to expand his power, while a weak one would go for whining and appeals to morality. — stoicHoneyBadger
What is harmonious? Living in harmony? Singing all the same song in harmony? No fights? No war? I'm not talking about the modern high-tec war in which whole cities can be blown away in a wink, but war between groups from which both parties emerge better although maybe at the cost of lifes, but who says human life is that important? Because god created it!
Is crime really that bad? Depends.
Happiness for all? What is happiness?
Etcetera. You can counter that what you wrote in your comment is commonly understood. Everybody knows what peace is. That's why people of Afghanistan, a country unknown by most people before the U.S. entered there to give the Mudjahedin a hand and some Stingers in their Jihad against the former USSR, thereby laying the foundations for the war on terror. — Robotictac
That is "objective" of politics. The "objective" of objective morality is, on the other hand, 'intrinsically reducing the miseries of self by extrinsically reducing miseries of others'. I try not to conflate politics with morality in order to make it easier to morally critique policy and politically mediate moral disagreements. — 180 Proof
Harmony, socially, means everybody getting along with each other. — TheMadFool
What do you mean by getting along? — Robotictac
Earth is not flat and yet the Earth is objectively round. In this case, if "there is no objective morality, tell me what this (link is below) defense of ethical naturalism gets wrong. — 180 Proof
That's why people of Afghanistan (a country unknown by most people before the U.S. entered there to give the Mudjahedin a hand and some Stingers in their Jihad against the former USSR, thereby laying the foundations for the war on terror) support the taliban and not want the tali to be banned. — Robotictac
The "objective" of objective morality is, on the other hand, 'to intrinsically reduce the miseries of self by extrinsically reducing the miseries of others' — 180 Proof
I'm a strong guy and women like me but I would' t even seriously think about using my strength and good looks to expand my power.
(No irony here...) — Robotictac
We want a harmonious society, peace, zero crime, happiness for all, and so on. — TheMadFool
Apparently you've responded to post (with a link to another post) you haven't bothered to read. — 180 Proof
However, you can't justify religion without morality. Religion is dope to help some cope — James Riley
I'm a strong guy and women like me but I would' t even seriously think about using my strength and good looks to expand my power.
(No irony here...)
— Robotictac
Why not? — stoicHoneyBadger
What do you mean by getting along?
— Robotictac
If you have to ask that question, maybe I should be getting along. — TheMadFool
That's no answer. What means getting along? No quareling or fighting? Why not? It's nice to fight once in a while. — Inplainsight
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