So you confess this discussion was worthless from the beginning, then proceed to blame the worthlessness of it on someone else? — Derrick Huestis
Government IS the solution in this case. — James Riley
That is, unless you suddenly changed your mind about all that... — Derrick Huestis
I think the "principle" is, though agreeable, only a truism which cannot survive contact with any enemy who's declared war (on reason? on science? on evidence? on public health? on democracy? on the rule of law? on "those people"?) — 180 Proof
Should you consider expatriation so as to find valuable community members? — frank
Do we just try to bully them into a Are we are the baddies? epiphany? — Srap Tasmaner
Come around, suffer the consequences of not coming around, or revolution. These people will come around. But why try to convince them? That horse done left the barn. They've killed untold numbers of people already. Time to turn up the temp and listen to them wail about fascism. Talk to the hand, bitches. — James Riley
What is an anti-vaxxer? It is unclear to me. — Bartricks
Or is it someone who is fine with getting one themselves, and fine with others getting one, but doesn't believe others should be 'made' to get one? — Bartricks
I don't think there's any reasonable, ethical basis for forcing people to get vaccinated. — Bartricks
And in this case, refusing to be vaccinated means one exposes oneself and others who have made the same free decision as oneself to greater risks, not innocent others. — Bartricks
Generally it's exactly what the label says: being anti-vaccines. Won't get their kids vaccinated, believe vaccines cause autism (yes, that's still out there), etc. — Xtrix
Is it even worth it to engage with these people?
They're immune to facts and they will not change their minds no matter what happens, which is interesting psychologically. But should we engage for the sake of others who are rational yet "on the fence"?
I struggle with this. — Xtrix
So, I am opposed - very opposed - to anyone being made to get a vaccine. I think it is wise to get one. — Bartricks
But given what I have just said - given my opposition to any government (or indeed, anyone) forcing or menacing anyone into getting one - am I an anti-vaxxer? — Bartricks
And in this case, refusing to be vaccinated means one exposes oneself and others who have made the same free decision as oneself to greater risks, not innocent others. — Bartricks
So, I am opposed - very opposed - to anyone being made to get a vaccine. — Bartricks
And I am very much opposed to the state using the powers at its disposal effectively to force people to get one. — Bartricks
Now, given what I have just said, do I qualify as an anti-vaxxer? — Bartricks
I mean, I assume you think it is ok for the government to flex its muscles and bully people into getting the vaccine. — Bartricks
Not true. Innocent people have died because they could not get a bed. (By bed, I mean all the staff and kit that goes with it). These people didn't have covid. They had accidents or other illnesses that hospitals usually have room for. — James Riley
I'd give an option: Stay away from the public and stay out of public spaces. Problem solved. — James Riley
Is there any case where you would change your position? — James Riley
They did not violate those people's rights. You're blaming the wrong people. It was those who determined who does or does not get a bed, if anyone, who violated those people's rights (not that anyone has a 'right' to a hospital bed). — Bartricks
For instance, I read some time ago that Covid is, quite literally, nothing compared to what could happen with other unrelated viruses should they: 1. make the leap from the animal to man; 2. be airborne; and 3. be easily transmissible. The worst case scenario being a pandemic that wipes out 70 or 80% of the world's human population in a matter of months. — James Riley
Yes, that is what everyone can freely decide to do. So, those who - despite being vaccinated themselves - are paranoid about getting seriously ill from those who haven't been vaccinated (a concern that is silly if, that is, the vaccine is effective) - can stay at home if they so wish. — Bartricks
Give me a good argument and I'll change my position on anything — Bartricks
What objection do you have to what I said, then? I mean, I assume you think it is ok for the government to flex its muscles and bully people into getting the vaccine. Why? Because of the science? What does that even mean? — Bartricks
So, if the vaccine is effective - and I am going to assume that it is, and believe that it is - then those who freely decide not to take it are exposing themselves and others who have made the same choice to a risk. — Bartricks
It’s misunderstanding what’s being aimed for and misunderstanding what vaccines do, and also failing to take into consideration the factor of mutation. It’s not simply “well what do vaccinated people care? They’re protected!” — Xtrix
Likewise, deciding not to get the vaccine is stupid, but people are entitled to do stupid things so long as doing them doesn't violate anyone else's rights. Right? — Bartricks
Incidentally, the relevant experts in this scenario are not the scientists, but ethicists. For this is a normative issue, not a scientific one. The science can and should inform the ethical judgement, but it can't be a substitute for it, for scientific claims are simply not normative claims. — Bartricks
So, the experts we should be listening to here are professional ethicists, yes? Guess who's one of those? — Bartricks
You're confusing different issues. — Bartricks
That's their right. — Bartricks
So that's this issue: this issue is about whether you can make adult free agents do things for their own good, or whether you have to let them decide for themselves. — Bartricks
If there is a right to health care (some think there is), then they forfeited their right and by doing so and then taking up a bed, they violated the rights of the innocent. — James Riley
Wrong. The burden is upon those who don't vax to not have covid or stay home. Those who vax can go back to the public. It's not a matter of paranoia. It's a proven fact. Have you counted the dead? The burden has shifted to those who don't vax to stay away from the public and out of public spaces. I sincerely hope the government uses all that power you are afraid of to make it so. — James Riley
The experts we should be listening to are doctors. — Xtrix
This is simply incorrect. — Xtrix
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