s all very well to choose not to consider those who differ with us enemies, but in some cases they will consider us enemies. I worry about that. — Srap Tasmaner
The title of the OP obviously makes all these issues "the same" with respect to the question of "worth engaging with". That's the question. — boethius
Again, if whole countries don't have mandated vaccines, it's no where close to "settled science" and "settled ethics" like the earth is round like a ball. — boethius
Norway is particularly interesting (because, it's not "unconstitutional", but they haven't don it, because competence generally means they don't really need to consider it): — boethius
That's a political and legal issue. The WHO has been pretty clear on their recommendations. No one is saying we want to physically force people into vaccinations -- that's a false characterization and a red herring. — Xtrix
In exchange for not giving the state power that could easily be abused (people needing "papers" to participate in normal society), there are costs to that. — boethius
There's sensible debate to be had about the legitimacy of state power, and whether vaccine mandates are an example of such. I get the concern. I'm not equating this with anti-vaxxers, and especially not flat Earthers. But I do think the case is clear cut and that people are arguing for the sake of argument -- typical in philosophy forums, I suppose. — Xtrix
The force is the fines or prison (and prison if you don't pay the fines); clearly using force. — boethius
Why wasn't "flat earth" an issue of any relevance before? Because it's not an issue of any relevance now; and I'm pretty sure 99% of "true believers" only found out about it because the media turned it into some sort of relevant public debate (which it's not), I'm nearly 100% confident the entire flat earth content was started as a joke (extremely typical engineery / physicicsy joke material). — boethius
That's not on the table in the US. No one will be sent to prison. You get vaccinated or you don't come to work/school -- simple. That's coercion? Fine -- then it's excited for decades. — Xtrix
To speak of young children being hospitalised with Covid-19 has the the same fearful effect as speaking of all the anecdotal reports of horrific vaccine injuries. Do you dismiss the latter as being unverified and unrepresentative? If so it seems worth considering that you may be employing the same trick. — AJJ
Here’s John Ioannidis, a highly respected researcher in epidemiology, saying that according to his research (in places such as Germany) the absolute risk of an under-65 dying from Covid-19 is about the same as driving your car to work — AJJ
Early on, it seemed to me that most of those hardest hit were black and Latino. Now I'm finally seeing one fat, diabetic unvaccinated white person after another dying. — frank
The American system can handle that kind of conflict up to a point. The Civil War shows how the whole thing can break down. If things head in that direction, history shows that compromise only makes things worse. — frank
And I've made the straw/camel back argument but don't expect you to get it. — James Riley
Civil war feels decidedly less hypothetical than it did when I was a kid. We're basically living through a cold civil war right now (with occasional open fighting, January 6 did actually happen). — Srap Tasmaner
What straw/camel back argument? — frank
Never mind. I sometimes forget that not everyone reads the whole thread(s) on a subj — James Riley
There are pretty deep divisions now, yes. — frank
Ah. Well it was not intended as a trick, but only to demonstrate that children are not immune. — Srap Tasmaner
Is there an easy-to-find breakdown of case-fatality rates broken down by vaccination status? That would be worth seeing. — Srap Tasmaner
What I don't understand is what use you're making of case-fatality rate. Are you telling parents they shouldn't care if their kids get sick because they're less than ten times as likely to die from covid than they are from the flu? — Srap Tasmaner
I mean, yeah, it's not Ebola, but you and your family ought to get vaccinated. Right? It's a risk that can be dramatically reduced. — Srap Tasmaner
"begging the question occurs when an argument's premises assume the truth of the conclusion, instead of supporting it."It does. That's not what "begging the question" means. I wonder if you and AJJ are the same person. — Xtrix
I think when it comes to the exemplars on this forum, both sides actually believe it. Both sides think the other side is the enemy of everything good in the world. — Srap Tasmaner
People (especially in the US) need to work to survive; obviously it's coercion if "enough" jobs require vaccine that you cannot practically find work at a "normal level" (making you a second class citizen); likewise, suddenly changing the policy for professions that previously had no such requirement is coercive to people who depend on that profession and did not provide "informed consent" when they started in that career. — boethius
And, if few governments, including the US, have even implemented any such policy, seems just to support my view it's not obviously ethical, settled medical ethics question, which was the statement of yours I was responding to. — boethius
The important point is that you haven't offered an argument that doesn't assume your conclusion is right. — Yohan
What was the last day, between Watergate and January 6, that you could have gone into a coma and then wake up to find what was happening surprising? Twenty years earlier? Ten? Five? One? — Srap Tasmaner
How did we even get from A to B? — Srap Tasmaner
Thanks for only sharing this now. Could have saved mine and others time, I imagine.As laymen, it’s prudent to listen to the consensus of experts. This is so commonsensical it’s essentially a truism. If you want to have an abstract, academic conversation about it, I’m not interested. — Xtrix
That coercion is legitimate, considering the stakes. This is a public health issue. Likewise, school and work vaccines that have existed for decades are also legitimate. — Xtrix
The vaccine passport idea is perfectly ethical in situations I’ve heard so far: travel, concerts, etc. how else will we know if those are vaccinated or not? — Xtrix
If people were smart and decent, these measures wouldn’t have to be taken. So these proposals are necessary because all other rational pleas have failed. — Xtrix
Maybe it wasn’t intended that way but it is tendentious — AJJ
Questions such as this are a slippery way of defaming someone. — AJJ
What is the risk of a young, healthy person dying from Covid-19? According to research such as Ioannidis’s, tiny. What is the risk of a person being injured by one of the vaccines? We don’t really know, but it exists. So where does this dramatic reduction in risk you claim actually come from? — AJJ
I haven't heard of police dragging anti-vaxxers off to a facility and forcefully vaccinating them. Anyone? The likes of kindergartens, schools, hospitals, military, is where vaccination has been mandatory (or at least some vaccinations have), for some time. I suppose the unvaccinated don't qualify for some things (the blind don't qualify for driver's license, either). — jorndoe
How should people use those statistics to inform the choices they must make? — Srap Tasmaner
Wendy Brown describes a left leaning narrative: — frank
The narrative is not wrong — Wendy Brown
but, I will argue, incomplete. It does not register the forces overdetermining the radically antidemocratic form of the rebellion and thus tends to align it with fascisms of old. It does not consider the demonized status of the social and the political in neoliberal governmentality nor the valorization of traditional morality and markets in their place. It does not recognize the disintegration of society and the discrediting of the public good by neoliberal reason as tilling the ground for the so-called “tribalisms” emerging as identities and political forces in recent years. — Wendy Brown
Thanks for only sharing this now. Could have saved mine and others time, I imagine. — Yohan
Obviously it's not legitimate for a lot of people considering many government have made no coercive measures. — boethius
Again, clearly not on the same level as flat earth and 6000 year old earth, which this thread is supposed to be equally about according to your own OP. — boethius
The issue of the vaccine passport is "how much". But again, zero vaccine passports and no serious talk of making any where I live. — boethius
If people were smart and decent, these measures wouldn’t have to be taken. So these proposals are necessary because all other rational pleas have failed.
— Xtrix
What about the "rational plea" to governments to contain the virus when it first broke out? — boethius
Trust needs to be earned. Governments that have not earned any trust shouldn't be surprised when they start to lose the basic trust needed to govern in the first place. — boethius
I haven't heard of police dragging anti-vaxxers off to a facility and forcefully vaccinating them. Anyone? — jorndoe
Medicine/science informs, ethics/morals decides, policies/politics implements. Presently, getting vaccinated comes out on top. While partaking in society do we not also have at least some social obligations? Seems responsible to take part in stomping the pandemic down. — jorndoe
What concerns me is navigating the differing perspectives of our fellow citizens. It's all very well to choose not to consider those who differ with us enemies, but in some cases they will consider us enemies. I worry about that. — Srap Tasmaner
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