People believe the minority that live a life of suffering are a reasonable sacrifice for everything else life has to offer.
Have you heard of The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas? — Down The Rabbit Hole
People believe the minority that live a life of suffering are a reasonable sacrifice for everything else life has to offer.
Have you heard of The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas? — Down The Rabbit Hole
Considering the unimaginable amount of physical and mental pleasure that occurs every day on this planet, day by day, for millions of years and counting, as well perhaps on countless other planets, which would make the Universe essentially a giant pleasure chamber, the philosophical view of Efilism seems rather… — RAW
People believe the minority that live a life of suffering are a reasonable sacrifice for everything else life has to offer. — Down The Rabbit Hole
Have you heard of The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas? — Down The Rabbit Hole
Reminds me of Eastern religions and Gnosticism: being born on Earth is a mistake, gotta get out of the cycle of reincarnation. Reach bliss by extinguishing desire (sounds a bit like a contradiction). — litewave
What are my thoughts on Elifism? Its fucking dumb. (you asked, thats my thought on it.) Like Antinatalism it depends entirely on putting the negative in a lofty, exalted status and ignoring the positive altogether. — DingoJones
Also, Im calling it now: RAW is here to plug his stuff, not for discussion. — DingoJones
I appreciate the honest opinion. Isn't the imbalance between the 2 at the core of it, the observation that the negative, the suffering is 1. far greater / numerous 2. sensationally far stronger, 3. durationally far longer than the positive? — RAW
Didn't get this? If you mean what I think you mean, absolutely not. — RAW
What's the point of efilism? — tim wood
The way I understand it, it's an extension of the Anti-Natalism - immoral for people to have kids, Efilism - immoral for any sentient being on Earth and possibly beyond to have kids. Life is mostly suffering, the positives are not worth the negatives, a single child in a long severe pain due to a cancer or whatever is not worth all the happiness on Earth, and beyond, and if there is a red button in front of you that terminates all life in the Universe in an instant, you are a psychopath not to press it, kind of a point.
It does sound absolutely crazy and extreme but if you manage to dive deeper into it open minded, putting immediate reactions like disgust etc. aside and under control, and look at it solely through logical lenses, for me at least, you can't help but admit it makes sense, for some more for some less maybe. — RAW
I think this is just what I said: exalting the negative, focusing only on the negative. — DingoJones
How would you even begin measuring these things? They are completely subjective. — DingoJones
There are people who are in objectively negative circumstances that none the less feel like the good outweighs the bad. Likewise there are those in objectively better/positive circumstances that none the less feel the bad outweighs the good. — DingoJones
So, what do you think of these views — RAW
Efilism in particular — RAW
It's pretty cringe, like any YouTube-based philosophy. — darthbarracuda
So, what do you think of these views
— RAW
Mainlander and his "Philosophy of Redemption" seem to me to be a deep investigation into the introspectiveness of human pessimism, with the aim of transforming it into a motivating force for Man's own will - "Wille zum Tode" aka "Will to Death" -.
Mainlander's philosophy may seem extremely and utterly "dystopic", however this is not the correct reading of his work. Philipp seeks, through pessimism, an answer to the end of all the sufferings that arise with existence itself, and his logical conclusion was that, instead of deluding ourselves with a "perception of life" towards the future, we - humanity - should fully embrace the fact that "non-life is the state with the least possible suffering, as it is absolute" and thus make existence itself a little more tolerable.
Efilism in particular
— RAW
It's pretty cringe, like any YouTube-based philosophy.
— darthbarracuda — Gus Lamarch
I don't care if a particular philosophy comes from a drunk guy on a toilet seat, if it's sound it's sound. — RAW
Care to put a little more effort and explain why exactly Efilism is "cringe", both of you? — RAW
What is completely subjective? — RAW
Can you be more specific, measure what, pain against pleasure? Consider this, an orgasm, having a wild sex with Charlize Theron, you being lucky you got the dream job, a child, a girl you wanted, PC to play a video game you really like -VS- you being eaten alive by a pack of lions, torn apart slowly by a giant bear, freezing to death, having your limbs cut off and living for the rest of your life with PTSD in a wheelchair unable to do anything without assistance, I mean I can go on and on and more disturbing? — RAW
Which side of the two is sensationally stronger and more life impacting? — RAW
A person suffers in life but feels it's worth all the good stuff in it?
I'm not getting what you're trying to say here or what's the importance of it to what we're discussing here. I'm talking about life as a whole, taking every sentient being into account, not just some guy that had a terrible car accident and is in heavy pain but is still happy because his 3 kids survived without a scratch and are enjoying life. It's a bad deviant argument. — RAW
Isn't the imbalance between the 2 at the core of it, the observation that the negative, the suffering is 1. far greater / numerous 2. sensationally far stronger, 3. durationally far longer than the positive? — RAW
What is completely subjective?
— RAW
Peoples ideas about whats good or bad about life and which ones are worthwhile tradeoffs. Thats going to vary greatly from person to person. — DingoJones
Even if we accept that certain things are bad to everyone, it still wouldn't resolve anything about what bad things outweigh what good things and vice versa. — DingoJones
This is all subjective. Each individual will have feelings and opinions about which of these things outweighs the others. Many people think having kids is worth the hardships of parenting, others do not.
Also your examples are completely one sided. All the negative ones are death and horror and the positive ones are almost all petty and fleeting.
Remember when I said you exalted the negative over the positive? Well thats what you’ve done here. Every point you are making is skewed towards the negative and thats your own subjective opinion about how the bad outweighs the good. That's true for you, but not for everyone.
You must be a pessimist in order for your arguments to work, and not everyone views things that way. — DingoJones
This depends on the person. Also, refer to my point about your skewed examples. Like look at your two lists, you picked some of the worst things you could think of for the negatives and the positives you picked sex and sex and work and “child” and sex again and a video game…
Do you honestly think you’ve made fair comparisons here? If those are the best things that you think life has to offer then you either lack imagination or need to broaden your horizons considerably and I mean that in the kindest, most helpful possible sense. — DingoJones
There are better presentations of the same ideas. Gary's funny sometimes in his lack of self-awareness, though.
The actual arguments themselves are straightforward and uncomplicated, and I mostly agree with them. I suppose I could probably raise some objection, but it's a pain to disentangle the actual arguments from the mental illness. I have better things to do. — darthbarracuda
Again, let's see your positive list that would establish the balance to say the least. Please, name 5-6 things that aren't petty and fleeting. — RAW
That is your subjective experience. Many others have a very different experience of life. In regard to my experience, I can not agree with a single one of those statements.
The answer is simple though: Everyone knows where the "exit" is. No one can force anyone to play the game. Just don't go assuming that others subscribe to your world view and want to take any part in the ideas that Efilism comes up with. — Hermeticus
RAW DingoJones is just going to say things like "Creating art, love, relationships, writing, creativity, etc". You left yourself opened on the positive side as you only mentioned physical pains and not emotional/abstract (or at least more complex) pleasures. — schopenhauer1
I haven't seen any sensical counter-arguments to Efilism. — RAW
I don't think you'll ever see a sensical counter-argument. You've chosen how you wish to perceive the world. Likewise, I won't ever see a sensical argument in support of Efilism (or Antinatalism for that matter). — Hermeticus
I believe you that the world you live in is a terrible and cruel place full of suffering. The world I live in is not though — Hermeticus
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