For most of us, music is mainly the experience of music, the time of hearing it. For musicians, the music is in their heads, with them. And no doubt most of us sometimes have a "song in our hearts," but no more as a musician does than most of us can run a sub-four-minute mile or a two-twenty marathon, or memorize and perform a syllable-perfect Shakespeare play. Which is to say that if nothing else, a solo classical performance is an exhibition of a world-class athleticism...

Hahn... about rendering the feeling in the music, seeking it, finding it, studying and understanding it, performing it.

As if, in going to church of a Sunday to hear a sermon, one encountered the voice of God itself! — tim wood

Thanks, for this; an exceptionally thoughtful listening piece.
So far, I've only clicked on Lark Ascending. So beautiful, clear and uplifting.

***
Your 'Sunday church-going' reminded me of 'Eleanor Rigby' - I talked of here:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/597807
Eleanor Rigby (Strings Only / Anthology 2 Version)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZA6jtxtTfQ&t=0s

[The first time my ears were stretched open to each instrument playing; linking the score to the lyrics for a deeper meaning. From simply hearing it as a pop song in 1966 to a careful listening decades later. I am grateful to the OU for that. How many get the chance to learn how to listen to music ? At the same time as attempting to interpret the meaning of lyrics...]

***
Since way back then, I have come to a greater appreciation of the mind/body connection.
A holistic view, if you like.

Music is a presencing. Of what exactly is not-so-easy to say. — tim wood

What do you mean by 'presencing' - being in the moment ?
Of what, then, would mean everything ? A deepening or enlarging of our senses/awareness...

If anyone interested, here's a free Open Yale 'Listening to Music' course
(video, transcripts and audio files of lectures):

https://oyc.yale.edu/music/musi-112/lecture-1

Professor Wright introduces the course by suggesting that “listening to music” is not simply a passive activity one can use to relax, but rather, an active and rewarding process. He argues that by learning about the basic elements of Western classical music, such as rhythm, melody, and form, one learns strategies that can be used to understand many different kinds of music in a more thorough and precise way – and further, one begins to understand the magnitude of human greatness. Professor Wright draws the music examples in this lecture from recordings of techno music, American musical theater, and works by Mozart, Beethoven, Debussy and Strauss, in order to introduce the issues that the course will explore in more depth throughout the semester. — Open Yale Course: Music 112

This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.

My own bias no doubt shared by many, is that music that has stood at least some test of time keeps more of its promises as to what it offers. — tim wood

La musica è come il gelato :cool:

Music is a presencing [...] the experience [...] the time of hearing it [...] , along with the conventions of the time — tim wood

I think that at the time of presencing the composition in their minds most composers were keenly aware of the audience and as professionals needed to balance their own much further advanced musical intellect and the pedestrian listening public.

When emperor Joseph II allegedly yawned and later told Mozart that there were too many notes, to which Mozart asked 'which ones should I remove your majesty?', the emperor was not wrong and neither was Mozart. Today audiences listen to recordings with veneration and expect the performance to be true to the note, at the expense of the spontaneity and innovations of the presentation. I'm the same way. Why did Ana Vidovic flick off that three-note figure repeatedly in an otherwise other-wordly Scarlatti sonata?

People who listen to music (as opposed to merely hearing it - another topic) will have recognized that music and the interpretation of music, while seeming at first the same thing, indistinguishable, are two different things. — tim wood

That's a significant point. Interpretations of a musical text can transform it in either direction. I love Richard Strauss' Four Last Songs, but it's the Jessie Norman 1983 Kurt Masur version that really transports me.

The significance of performance/interpretation reminds me of the joke about an insufferable ham actor doing Shakespeare in a theater in a city somewhere in the mid 20th century. His performance was so dire that the audience started booing him and throwing things. The actor turned to them and yelled, "Hey, don't blame me, I didn't write this shit!"

This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.

Your highlighting the importance of presence in music sparked thoughts in a number of directions. The prime focus should be on the essential personal subjective experience of one listener at an ideally live performance with a large audience also in attendance. This one-time experience of the weather, traffic, parking, cost, crowd, formality, location of seats, acoustics, the dispositions of human performers, and coughing strangers during quiet passages.

This is different from listening repeatedly to recorded performances with a fine headset. Recordings are comparative by their nature with so much more of the same or similar recordings readily available on youtube. Spontaneity is replaced with sober analysis off the computer. The Vidovic recital I meant is the recent one, starting at 41:39. My wife thinks it's the best she's ever heard. So do I, but all I could think of at the time were those muted notes. Sorry me.

But presence has other notable aspects. The performers make the music and not the composer. The composer is the beneficiary or victim of the instrumentalists. Performers work for years to hone fine details of their art to create the possibilities that only can come to fruition on stage in front of an audience or microphones. When that happens they also experience the presence of their efforts. I found a couple of oldies to compare: Heifetz, Ysaye, Hassid

Your highlighting the importance of presence in music sparked thoughts in a number of directions. — magritte

Likewise. Although I only responded to one aspect, I had been thinking of the complete interaction.
The whole process from beginning to end.
In addition, even as I learned how to listen more carefully to each instrument, I thought that too much objective analysis/criticism could spoil the subjective experience. As you say:

My wife thinks it's the best she's ever heard. So do I, but all I could think of at the time were those muted notes. Sorry me. — magritte

I wonder if rather than have ears wide open and alert, that it might be an idea to relax and close a little.
Be more laid back as if dreaming or in a relaxed, satisfied afterglow...
Just a thought.

***

But presence has other notable aspects. The performers make the music and not the composer. The composer is the beneficiary or victim of the instrumentalists — magritte

''Beneficiary or victim'. This sounds similar to foreign language translation and interpretation of a poem.
See @Olivier5 :
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/598381

"Yes I did translate it. Translating poems is always a treason though. As the Italians say: traduttore traditore."
It takes expertise to know the words, the context, feel the sense and share that experience.
@Olivier5 did that :100:

[ We see the same in philosophy interpretations/arguments. Not mentioning troublesome Plato ! ]

***

The beauty of youtube is that we can listen to so many versions to compare and share.
And learn.

For example @tim wood's link:
Hilary Hahn: Prokofiev's Violin Concerto No. 1 in a nutshell
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=015QVOO-5Ek

And this is what I enjoy about watching someone perform. I used to think that it was overly dramatic, and in some cases that's true. However, Hilary explained how Prokofiev linked in choreography not just in ballet but in the techniques. At times, the whole body has to move 'expanding and contracting..

Hilary calls the performance a 'wild ride'. From a very still start...
She inspires confidence.
So any 'performance anxiety' - I sometimes feel as a listener is kept to a minimum.
I can relax and simply appreciate. For now, at home.

This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.

A composer, arguably, wrests it from the void, coalescing music into sound of instrument and voice...

Each then, poetry and music, brought out, somehow, from a primordial reality that, finished, just is the reality of the thing itself; dressed, then, in a clothing of performance. Granted that between two competent performances one may be more resonant with one auditor, another with another. But is the performance opaque, in a sense, or more transparent? I find myself returning to the transparency that allows a view of the music itself. — tim wood

'Wrested from the void' ?
Brought out somehow...from a 'primordial reality' ?

I agree that the origin of any inspiration can be seen as mysterious - some say a gift from God.
However, I tend to think that it stems from the mind.
The origin of a human creation - or product of the creative process - starts with imagination.
A coalescing of ideas, senses - a way of seeing the potential to expand existing thoughts/dreams.
At a more basic level by playing around - as children do.

Play, performance, persona - the roles and masks - can be, as you suggest, transparent or opaque.

Why would you say that 'transparency' allows a view of the music itself ?
Are you relating this to the 'ego' of some performers which can overwhelm a piece ?
I agree that the aesthetics can be spoiled if the performer is distracting.

However, a degree of opaqueness is necessary if we are to suspend reality for a while, no ?
Escapism. Not just for the performer but for ourselves...it can enhance the experience.

You might be interested in this article which explores:

...varieties of personas: those which are transparent (such as when a singer performs more or less as that singer) and those which are opaque (such as when a singer performs more or less as a fictional character). I also distinguish between performance personas and song personas. After introducing and elucidating these distinctions, I discuss ways in which they further inform aesthetic evaluation of such performances. — Oxford Academic article: aesthetics and art criticism

... During some eras of Bowie's prolific career—perhaps during his early days, as well as his later run of albums—Bowie performed somewhat consistently under what was either a transparent performance persona or a rather stable Bowie opaque performance persona. During other times, he would adopt opaque performance personas, such as Ziggy Stardust or the Thin White Duke. If, during his later career, Bowie were to perform a song such as the Ziggy‐era “Moonage Daydream,” we can understand this as Bowie‐qua‐Bowie adopting a temporary Ziggy song persona. The best to way understand—and, hence, fully aesthetically engage with—Bowie's many performances, then, is to see him as a performer who frequently and freely cycled through transparent performance personas, opaque performance personas, and song personas, often layering them upon one another. It is to his credit as a singer and a performer that so many of his performances, filtered through persona atop persona, were such aesthetic successes. — Oxford academic article: Transparent and opaque performance personas

Hilary calls the performance a 'wild ride'. From a very still start. — Amity

The wild ride also goes for the audience, especially if the performer is famous and the concert is highly anticipated. I often think that composing and performing are mostly technical with touches of creativity here and there but sometimes I am shocked into intense lasting pleasure (superior to even the best sex) by transcendent artistry. It is this that I seek as a listener.

This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.

Today audiences listen to recordings with veneration and expect the performance to be true to the note, at the expense of the spontaneity and innovations of the presentation. — magritte

That's why it is highly desirable for people to -- at least occasionally -- attend live performances. The live performance does not have to be up to Carnegie Hall standards, but it should be reasonably competent. I've attended amateur / semi-professional performances that were very satisfactory concerts -- and yes, sometimes noticeably imperfect. That's fine. The thing is, hear music that is performed live, before a live audience.

Personally, I can't afford to regularly attend professional orchestra performances at Orchestra Hall, though when I do attend, it's worth the cost.

This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.

Very good point about school-of-music recitals.

Other sources are small community orchestras and church-sponsored performances of secular music. Costs have risen for everyone over the last 20 or 30 years and there are fewer outright free concerts than there used to be. Still, the cost of a community orchestra concert can be quite affordable.

So, a lot's going on between composer, conductor, orchestra, soloist and so on. I didn't know music could be thaaaat complex. An eye-opener for me. Good to know.

Music is like religion then - what's meant, what's understood, what's practiced (performed) are all different in their own way.

Am I wrong or does religion have a lot to do with music?

The wild ride also goes for the audience, especially if the performer is famous and the concert is highly anticipated. I often think that composing and performing are mostly technical with touches of creativity here and there but sometimes I am shocked into intense lasting pleasure (superior to even the best sex) by transcendent artistry. It is this that I seek as a listener. — magritte

I've just listened to and watched an incredible performance, thanks to @tim wood for link in OP. *
This concert must have been SO 'highly anticipated' - given the timing and circumstances.
A lessening of covid restrictions which had affected/closed many art venues/gatherings in 2020.
Now, in 2021 - precautions still being taken with mask wearing and some social distancing.

The performer not only famous but with an attractive, sincere and beguiling personality.
I didn't know of her until this thread but have read more:

On playing Bach
In 1999 Hahn said that she played Bach more than any other composer and had played solo Bach pieces every day since she was eight.[8]

Bach is, for me, the touchstone that keeps my playing honest. Keeping the intonation pure in double stops, bringing out the various voices where the phrasing requires it, crossing the strings so that there are not inadvertent accents, presenting the structure in such a way that it's clear to the listener without being pedantic – one can't fake things in Bach, and if one gets all of them to work, the music sings in the most wonderful way.

— Hilary Hahn, Saint Paul Sunday[48] — Wiki: Hilary Hahn

--------

*
Hilary Hahn /Paavo Järvi /GEPO - Sibelius: Violin Concerto in D minor, Op. 47 (2021)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O65YBjweUPo&t=741s
Jean Sibelius (1865-1957) - Violin Concerto in D minor, Op. 47 (1905)
1. Allegro moderato (00:29)
2. Adagio di molto (18:10)
3. Allegro, ma non tanto (26:24)
Hilary Hahn, violin
Paavo Järvi, conductor
George Enescu Philharmonic Orchestra

Today audiences listen to recordings with veneration and expect the performance to be true to the note, at the expense of the spontaneity and innovations of the presentation.
— magritte

That's why it is highly desirable for people to -- at least occasionally -- attend live performances. — Bitter Crank

Yes. But as you say, there are now more obstacles than ever. It's not easy.

Personally, I can't afford to regularly attend professional orchestra performances at Orchestra Hall, though when I do attend, it's worth the cost. — Bitter Crank

For me, right now, it would take something extraordinary to make it worthwhile.
I can hardly remember attending free/low cost smaller concerts when visiting London...such as:
https://www.stmartin-in-the-fields.org/whatson-event/concerts-by-candlelight/
Concerts cancelled in 2020 now rescheduled

With over 50 concerts to choose from in the magnificent surroundings and acoustic of St Martin’s, there is no better time to rediscover the power and passion that only live performance offers. — Concerts by Candlelight at St. Martin's

--------

Having watched Hilary's performance and the effect not only on the audience but the members of the orchestra - there is a rapture which can't be captured simply by listening to a recording.
Even if the recording is of a live performance...

At the end of the 'Adagio di molto' - there is an amazing moment of silence before the audience seems to wake up and wonder should they applaud - would it break the spell...

Hilary - a very special person.

Since 2016, she has piloted free concerts for parents with infants, a knitting circle, a community dance workshop, a yoga class and art students. She plans to continue these community-oriented concerts, encouraging people to combine live performances with their interests outside the concert hall and providing opportunities for parents to hear music with their infants, who might be barred from traditional concerts.
— Wiki: Hilary Hahn

Thanks @tim wood for another extraordinary introduction... :sparkle:

However, I tend to think that it [music] stems from the mind.
— Amity
I inserted "music" into your quote. Do you suppose that composer's compositions are purely invented? I do not. Details, as allowed by the composition itself. But music qua, no. Maybe better if I call it the possibility of music as a particular piece. — tim wood

OK. To backtrack:

I agree that the origin of any inspiration can be seen as mysterious - some say a gift from God.
However, I tend to think that it stems from the mind.
The origin of a human creation - or product of the creative process - starts with imagination.
A coalescing of ideas, senses - a way of seeing the potential to expand existing thoughts/dreams. — Amity

My 'it' referred to 'imagination' as the origin, not to the 'music' as you suggest 'arguably wrested from a void or primordial reality by the composers'.
So, What did you mean by that and How does any 'wresting' happen ?

I do not think we have anything worth disagreeing about, just rather two different approaches. — tim wood

Well, there will always be different ways of thinking about an issue in the philosophy of music.
However, I am no expert and feelings of wonder evaporate when looking at the SEP article:
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/music/

You ask interesting questions:

Do you suppose that composer's compositions are purely invented? I do not. Details, as allowed by the composition itself. But music qua, no. Maybe better if I call it the possibility of music as a particular piece. — tim wood

Composer's compositions.
How is anything composed ?
Not pure invention - but inventiveness is part of it. Innovations. New ideas.
Otherwise music/poetry/art and philosophy would stay still. Dead.

Interesting to compare definitions of 'composition' and 'improvisation'.

... Richard Barrett goes on to say that his definition of improvisation as one way of composing, makes it clear that the two ways of creating music are in no way in opposition. Thus, composition can mean ”making music” and improvisation is a method for making music, in a spontaneous, real-time way.

Then, if ”composition” means ”music-making” and ”improvisation” means ”spontaneous music-making”, what is a useful word for the other main method of composition: ”Planning and notating how to make music in advance and have it executed at another point in time (possibly by musicians)”?

”Predetermined musical structuring or material” feels like a useful definition for me.

This material, which is usually notated in some way, is normally more or less similar from performance to performance, whereas free improvisations can, maybe even should, be very different.

I agree with Barrett’s definition, but there are some fundamental differences between what we normally associate with composition (predetermined structuring or material) and improvisation:

Improvisation is an ongoing dialogue, and is usually based on communication from the very moment it starts, with other improvisers and the audience. Composing music on paper is usually a solitary process until just before it is performed. There may be communication with the players and the composer in advance, and also when rehearsing the music, but the main form of communication is verbal or literary. In improvisation one communicates via musical sounds.
— Natural Patterns - Composition and Improvisation

My knowledge and experience of composition is scant. Really not up to the task...
Hopefully, others will join in this discussion.
There is so much more to learn:

No one, composer or improviser, has ever created music out of nothing, without reference to what has gone before. Both improviser and composer build up a store of musical experience before creating something new, and that ‘something new’ is both related to and in some way different from what has gone before. Beethoven drew on the tradition handed down to him, arguably neither more nor less than did jazz saxophonist John Coltrane or Indian sitarist Pandit Ravi Shankar. — Open Learn: Composition and improvisation in cross-cultural perspective

https://www.open.edu/openlearn/ocw/mod/oucontent/view.php?id=1840&printable=1

Again, thanks to @tim wood for link:

Hilary Hahn: Rautavaara's "Deux Sérénades" in a nutshell (4:49)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICGFmN85J50

Here, Hilary talks about the interpretation as a 'blueprint' which is as close to the composer's 'emotional intention' as possible. To capture the initial feeling. She contrasts a potential dramatic, powerful and operatic way but recognises that this is not really how the composer 'moved through the world' and so
she chooses to express the openness and embracing of love...
Connecting with the composer and the audience.

It is moving to hear of the circumstances which led to this.
The composer had passed away before completion and premier.
According to Hilary, he had a warmth and spirituality - also haunted by its dark side in life and death; darkness and light.

Her short discussion is informative but also a temptation...
'Einojuhani Rautavaara's "Deux Sérénades," is one of three pieces on her album “Paris,” recorded with Mikko Franck and the Orchestre Philharmonique de Radio France. “Paris” is out now.

Happy listening :sparkle:

but it's the Jessie Norman 1983 Kurt Masur version that really transports me. — Tom Storm

Transports you -- from whence to where?

Transports you -- from whence to where? — baker

From suburban shitsville to the Elysian fields... It's a turn of phrase, B...

This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.

2.1 The Fundamentalist Debate
Musical works in the Western classical tradition admit of multiple instances (performances). Much of the debate over the nature of such works thus reads like a recapitulation of the debate over the “problem of universals”; the range of proposed candidates covers the spectrum of fundamental ontological theories. We might divide musical ontologists into the realists, who posit the existence of musical works, and the anti-realists, who deny their existence. Realism has been more popular than anti-realism, but there have been many conflicting realist views. — SEP says

The SEP article lays out the difficulties of the subject, and this does not even acknowledge the role of the listener or the circumstances of the performance. Is this at a circus, parade, a concert in the park, or a funeral? To go beyond some vague definition for art and music, we really should attempt to limit philosophical discussion to ontologically manageable objects. While this is not the advertised topic of this thread, it is the underlying issue, I believe.

This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.

Hw do you figure music is not manageable? It's not an object? Or it is an object, but not an ontologically manageable one. If the latter, what does that even mean? — tim wood

Some objects are tangible, like a house or a mouse, some are less so, like a cloud. Some other objects are in the mind, like ideas, simple numbers or dreams. Then there are those that are products of social conventions, like scientific objects.

For music, there are several obvious candidates: the material original score, the music to which that score refers, or a correct performance. I take it that you are under the impression that one of these is the true composition. Unfortunately, none of these comes close enough to the world-as-it-is to sufficiently describe what most philosophers can comfortably accept.

For example, the score is generally not intended by the composer to be performed as it is written, The written language of music is too sparse to indicate exact performance. Nor is music intended to be performed exactly as the composer first envisioned, because variation and interpretation are implicit in the musical score and practice to suit the performer, the occasion, and the audience. Even the composer's own performance of their music is just one particular case and not the definitive exemplar.

True, some degree of vagueness in conception also occurs in natural and scientific objects, but in music variation is the heart of the subject and not just an insignificant nuisance to the philosopher as it is elsewhere.

This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.

One of the aims of classical music is for a person to feel all human emotions, and transcend them. Not to indulge in them.

A good cautionary tale to this theme is the historical reception of Rachmaninoff's Third piano concerto. "Rach. 3" as it is notoriously called in some cricles can induce in some people deep existential feelings and attitudes that they are not able to cope with.

That's why it is highly desirable for people to -- at least occasionally -- attend live performances. The live performance does not have to be up to Carnegie Hall standards, but it should be reasonably competent. I've attended amateur / semi-professional performances that were very satisfactory concerts -- and yes, sometimes noticeably imperfect. That's fine. The thing is, hear music that is performed live, before a live audience. — Bitter Crank

Perhaps just to get a sense for it, yes.

But for most people, such a live performance of pieces they are not yet familiar with is probably going to be intolerably boring, and, depending on where their seats are, of relatively low sound quality (in comparison to a mastered recording).

A good cautionary tale to this theme is the historical reception of Rachmaninoff's Third piano concerto. "Rach. 3" as it is notoriously called in some cricles can induce in some people deep existential feelings and attitudes that they are not able to cope with. — baker

The thought of this amuses me as it's a fairly lightweight composition. I much prefer Rach 2 - still lightweight but it's far more efficacious I find for wallowing and the indulgence of self. For existential feelings that threaten to overwhelm, I would choose the largo movement from Shostakovich's Fifth Symphony. Or maybe the adagio from Mahler's unfinished 10th symphony. Simon Rattle conducting.