I'll bet you $5 that I can make something a fact just by saying it.That something is what people say is a fact, but what they say is not made a fact by their saying it. — Srap Tasmaner
What is said exactly is made a fact by the saying. "I name this ship the Queen Elizabeth" can make it a fact that the ship has that name. — Banno
I'll bet you $5 that I can make something a fact just by saying it. — InPitzotl
Unless names are not facts. — Banno
A question - is that the area of a circle is given by π r² a fact? — Banno
Maybe you could persuade me that stipulations and tautologies should count as facts — Srap Tasmaner
Fact and stipulation -- baptism being a kind of stipulation, right? -- just shouldn't end up together. — Srap Tasmaner
A question - is that the area of a circle is given by π r² a fact? — Banno
So you'd rather not call this formula a fact? — Banno
The act of naming brings about the fact of the name referring. — Banno
I'm positing that post facto, it is a fact that the bishop moves diagonally. The point being to show that facts are not solely the result of observation.
The act of naming brings about the fact of the name referring. — Banno
How do you feel about this formula?
C=πd
Is that a fact? — Srap Tasmaner
If a ship is christened, the name is a kind of stipulation. That the ship henceforward becomes known by the name it was christened with (if it does) is a fact. I see no problem here. — Janus
No, it's a formula. It's a fact that people use it to determine the circumference of circles, though. Does it represent a fact? If it is a fact that the circumference is equal to pi multiplied by the diameter then yes. — Janus
I'm fine with saying it's a fact that we use the symbol the way we do, but that doesn't make the definition itself a fact, does it? — Srap Tasmaner
All of this by way of showing that using "fact" to talk only about observations is obtuse. — Banno
People also say, "It is what it is," and others nod in solemn agreement. Language is some weird shit. — Srap Tasmaner
You didn't really discuss my bet at all. I didn't name anything; I "made a bet".Maybe you could persuade me that stipulations and tautologies should count as facts, but for now they feel way different to me. — Srap Tasmaner
Might I suggest there are different "kinds" of facts, and they feel different because they're doing different things? But along those lines, "water molecules are composed of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom", "bishops always stay on their own color", and "Joe is married to Sue" all feel different to me... IOW, perhaps a taxonomy of facts would be preferred to a refinement of the concept?Maybe you could persuade me that stipulations and tautologies should count as facts, but for now they feel way different to me. — Srap Tasmaner
the abyss of the Quine-Duhem thesis. — Srap Tasmaner
Is what not a fact? That animals we've classified as canines are what we've classified them as? That they share certain characteristics we used to define the box we put them in?
Call it a fact if you like. I wouldn't. I'd agree that it's a fact this is how zoologists classify animals. It's a fact that I have to work today. It's a fact that men landed on the moon in 1969. It's a fact that Joe Biden won the 2020 election. — Srap Tasmaner
Yes, the same facts can be expressed in different languages. There are facts of conformation and characteristic that have been criteria for classification of animals, plants and other natural kinds; that seems to be what you are getting at, and I agree. — Janus
I'd like to hear what you think. — Banno
We can not even think of it without a word to name it or a symbol to represent it, but as we have explored pi we have discovered it has profound consequences in our lives. — Athena
I'm not so sure everyone knows what a fact is.Everyone may know what a fact is but I am not sure what everyone thinks a fact is. I have a second question to ask when there is an answer to what a fact is. — Athena
These exemplify the two sorts of use of the term I'm most accustomed to encounter in philosophical conversations. I believe I tend to favor the second sort of use in my own speech, though it's often hard to tell the difference.There's a couple of uses for the word.
A fact is a statement that is true.
It is also the state of affairs set out by a true statement. — Banno
How do you know it's true? — tim wood
Was that really the second question? (Or how else might you express the "second question" you had in mind?)aaha, you asked the second question. — Athena
I strongly agree that too much time is squandered in philosophical disputes in which it seems there is no objective standard or criterion available to settle the matter. I suggest it's one of the more important tasks of the philosopher to identify such controversies and put them to rest.My reason for starting this thread is we argue so much about theoretical things that can not be validated and many of our arguments are opinions and not facts. — Athena
So you'd rather not call this formula a fact? — Banno
Well for one, the power to make a bet by stating that I'm making one. It's a fact that I made that bet; a fact made true by the fact that I stated that I made it (is that not how bets are made?)Hum, what mystical power do you have that you can make something a fact? Any of us can state a fact but how can we make one? — Athena
It's a fact that I made that bet; a fact made true by the fact that I stated that I made it (is that not how bets are made?) — InPitzotl
You have failed to make your case.For the record, no, that's not how bets are made. — Srap Tasmaner
Like the christening of a ship or any other speech act, it requires specific circumstances — Srap Tasmaner
You're over-interpreting here. A claim that x is how y happens (in this context) is a claim about means, not sufficiency. That the speaker can use the language of making a bet without really making one does not refute that this is how bets are made."I'll bet a million bucks Jerry's gonna be late today" — Srap Tasmaner
and the cooperation of others. — Srap Tasmaner
Let's call the person who said "Bet I can beat you to the mailbox" Jack, and "You're on!" Joe."Bet I can beat you to the mailbox" might be met with "You're on!" and the kids race, — Srap Tasmaner
...this is just negotiating a wager.or with "Loser takes out the trash?" in which case there's now an actual wager being offered, but it's still not a wager until the other says "Deal!"
To say that this isn't how we propel bicycles because if the chain weren't there it wouldn't work would just be silly; there's nothing in the claim that this is how we propel bicycles that purports this to be sufficient. — InPitzotl
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