But I see the same horrors at the hands of government. How can you participate in government knowing what a past it has had? Might your response be "not the government I believe in"? Substitue "religion" in there for me. — Hanover
if one allows religion not to be factually correct, to consist in metaphor and allegory, for the betterment of mankind, then does that mean it need not be honest? — Banno
If, in the last couple of Occidental millennia, "faith" has meant anything, it certainly has meant believing in the unbelievable in order to defend the indefensible ... in the name of insert______here. — 180 Proof
Even in its foundation Christianity had multiplicity of thought with warring factions, some of which continued on and some which were snuffed out. — Ennui Elucidator
Perhaps the goal of organized religions is to teach its adherents not to question them, or at least to assure as much as possible they won't have the opportunity to do so. — Ciceronianus
Religion also tends to maintain that it holds the truth, while government rarely gets any more totalizing than expressing broadly held community values. — Tom Storm
I think you greatly over-simplify things when you attempt to draw a clean break between government and religion. This concept of secularism is fairly new, and it's hardly complete. — Hanover
That it is to say one can believe in American ideology, but be disappointed in American behavior. The same can be said of any particular religion. — Hanover
Well, that's what threw me, Ennui: I didn't claim or even imply – "pejoratively" or otherwise – that "faith" is "the point of religion". On page 1 of this thread I wrote: https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/593336You used the word "faith" pejoratively in the context of the point [of] religion — Ennui Elucidator
Ironically, the use of 'faith' to describe believing despite the facts comes from Augustin of Hippo. He thought it a virtue. — Banno
How the world works is a scientific question, but how I should live my life is not — Hanover
What we call "faith" today, I'd submit is an entirely separate epistemology that can co-exist with a scientific one only insofar as it doesn't attempt to respond to scientific questions. — Hanover
That's why Ennui Elucidator and @Metaphysician Undercover find themselves advocating telling lies. — Banno
And seriously Banno, either step up and advocate a block universe with no freewill or give up on your historical facts. There is no state-of-affairs there. — Ennui Elucidator
So far as I can tell from the literature, lots of smart people tried really hard to question those religions in order to establish them as the right one and no one is running around telling adherents not to read the apologists. — Ennui Elucidator
The noble lie is told to others; of course, I had presumed you and I know the truth about the early years of Christianity. Or do you choose to lie to yourself? — Banno
That's why Ennui Elucidator and @Metaphysician Undercover find themselves advocating telling lies. — Banno
IF a religion lies about its history then it may also lie about what it is doing now - it acts in bad faith. And indeed we see this in the many ways the various churches have covered over recent sins of maltreatment and pedophilia. — Banno
There's a reason I don't usually reply to your posts, Meta. It's because you are so comfortable with self-contradiction.
If you are happy to be dishonest to yourself, then then I will continue ignoring your posts. — Banno
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