As long as the discussion is limited to philosophy forums, there should be no problem.
— baker

There's no 'problem' per se in voicing opposition to whatever policy but I believe that in times of crisis, 1) one should give some slack to political leaders, their job is hard nowadays and you and I wouldn't be able to do any better; and 2) consider the need for a little social cohesion, for a bit more attention to the public good, i.e. more civic sense and responsibility to the collective is required in times of crisis than otherwise I think. — Olivier5

I said: As long as the discussion is limited to philosophy forums, there should be no problem.
I'm not talking about watercooler or family dinner conversations, nor about public appearances in mass media.

What we're seeing in this pandemic is that criticial thinking is being pushed out of all venues. Even at a philosophy forum, the one place in the world that should allow for some nuance and detail, we're now supposed to be all politically correct and superficial.

Some Croatian social scientists say that the reason why many people don't get vaccinated is because they don't trust the government.
— baker

So a guy spoke on TV, huh?

It was a she. I think she made a good point. So much of what people do, or don't do, depends on whether they trust the government. She pointed out that typically, countries with high vaccination rates are those where people trust the government.

Even at a philosophy forum, the one place in the world that should allow for some nuance and detail, we're now supposed to be all politically correct and superficial. — baker

Don't assume that this is your usual 'Mary's room' amateur philo discussion. It's a matter of life and death for people.

We are supposed to be responsible citizens of the world and of our communities. What we write can either be part of the problem, or be part of the solution. Exercise caution. Keep your head cool. Speak of what you know. If you know nothing about vaccines, then don't try and play the expert. If you heard a rumor, verify it or look at the source before spreading it. This sort of things.

She pointed out that typically, countries with high vaccination rates are those where people trust the government. — baker

Yes, that makes sense.

, most doctors have taken an oath I think. Nurses/medics etc aren't far off that. There are some related laws, like malpractice and negligence.
The verbiage of these sorts of things are often attempts at capturing ethics, though, technically, counter-examples can usually be found (yet another topic in ethics).
Anyway, despite cynicism there are drivers and concerns.
Say, if my neighbor was an anti-vaxxer, then that doesn't mean I'd like to see them suffer/die or rejected by the hospital. I might have a chat with them.

What does the right thing consist of anyway...?

SARS-CoV-2 should be left to replicate propagate mutate unchecked with no containment efforts, leaving whatever in its wake? — jorndoe

(n) ☣

Drag all unvaccinated off to a facility and inoculate them at gunpoint?

(n) (some have expressed things a bit in this direction)

Somewhere in between?

Treating others with dignity, trying to dispel fears, educating and keeping dis/mis/malinformation in check, ... (y) — jorndoe

The evidence is the authority here more so than some (unweighted) "he-said-she-said", the truth of the SARS-CoV-2/pandemic matter more so than some sort of radical cultural relativism. Would be kind of neat if the virus could just be argued away though. :smile: — jorndoe

If rejecting "mainstream media" means turning to garbage, then it's neither smart nor doing the right thing. Wary of all the bullshit. :fire: Allow revising the outlook on the matter. (y)

^{• Persuasion, not coercion or incentivisation, is the best means of promoting COVID-19 vaccination (Jan 26, 2021)
• The vaccinated are angry. That's understandable but unproductive, health experts say (Aug 8, 2021)
• Companies mulling charging unvaccinated employees more for health coverage: report (Aug 14, 2021)
• To protect our kids from COVID-19, we have to be grown-ups (Aug 16, 2021)}

Drag all unvaccinated off to a facility and inoculate them at gunpoint? — jorndoe

There is no need to do that, so long as we have "No shoes, no shirts, no service" for the vax. But we haven't even arrived there yet. We're still trying to be nice. At least where I live.

, same here. Though, over at the dentist they told me of a skirmish with a mask-denier at the grocery store. It's not like motorcycle racing up and down the isles was ever allowed.



"Our patience is wearing thin" (Sep 9, 2021)

:100: At the beginning of this, with mask "mandates" I would see many unmasked at the grocery store, notwithstanding signs and audio messages. I thought the answer was the same as any bar: bouncers at the door. I'd pay a small mark up for that.

As to my focus on the political side of things, I think that if we are going to go to war with a virus then it is reasonable to know who is with you and who is with the virus. Anyone who wants to try "diplomacy" or mediation is free to talk to the virus and try to make peace with it, so long as their efforts don't interfere with the tactics and strategies designed by our generals, intelligence and other experts. Policy can always be argued. I'm fine with that. But don't pretend to be an expert at killing viruses unless you are.

But maybe it's too late. Maybe the virus and it's supporters won and now we have to learn to live with our new master. Even so, those of us who fought the good fight will still harbor a grudge. At least I will.

, it's easy to get pissed off with crap like this ...

^{• ‘So frustrating’: Doctors and nurses battle virus skeptics (Oct 8, 2020)
• Swedish officials report ‘escalated’ threats and hate in coronavirus debate (Feb 19, 2021)
• Joe Mercola: An antivaccine quack tycoon pivots effortlessly to profit from spreading COVID-19 misinformation (Jul 26, 2021)
• Parent rips face mask off teacher in confrontation at school, Texas district says (Aug 17, 2021)
• London transport staff warned of anti-mask posters with razor blades (Sep 9, 2021)
• A Teen Called For Masks In School After His Grandma Died Of COVID. Adults Mocked Him (Sep 10, 2021)
• UPDATE: Shock in Germany after cashier shot dead in Covid mask row (Sep 21, 2021)}

:100: If only the virus would stick to those who don't believe in it. I guess war is never like that. Collateral damage is the old and the weak. Back in the day we used to protect the old and the weak; and not throw them under the bus. But now we want to just lock them up while we go on with our merry little lives. After all, distancing, masking and vax is a big ask for a culture of pussies.

The cause of millions of deaths and the destruction of lives of 100s of millions of people. Bio-medical science. You can trust them. They are the experts. They know what they are doing. Especially Fauci :)

https://youtu.be/pAIsK9tosck

Jon Stewart was spot on in the way humanity will destroy itself:

https://youtu.be/sSfejgwbDQ8

The cause of millions of deaths and the destruction of lives of 100s of millions of people. — MondoR

Are people who wouldn't distance, mask and vax.

After all, distancing, masking and vax is a big ask for a culture of pussies. — James Riley

You are right: the whiners are basically afraid of the needle. When they were kids, i bet you they were too ashamed to say it, but now as grown-ups they can rationalize their cowardice.

Don't assume that this is your usual 'Mary's room' amateur philo discussion. It's a matter of life and death for people. — Olivier5

It's always a matter of life and death anyway. Where some people go wrong is in assuming that this covid crisis is something special, rare, extraordinary.

That doesn't answer my questions.

Why do the vocal pro-vaccers complain about having empathy or compassion for the unvaccinated?
Why do they complain about having to go to some lengths to help them, medically?

If the matter is really so simple and so black-and-white and so true and so obvious as the vocal pro-vaccers claim it is ("Just get vaccinated and all will be well"), then why not make it into laws?

What does the right thing consist of anyway...? — jorndoe

Given the hatred and contempt that some vocal pro-vaccers show for the unvaccinated and everyone else who isn't particularly enthusiastic about vaccination, I surmise that those vocal pro-vaccers are completely inthe clear about what "the right thing" is. So it shouldn't be hard for them to explicate it and to take according action against those who differ.

It's always a matter of life and death anyway. Where some people go wrong is in assuming that this covid crisis is something special, rare, extraordinary. — baker

Thanks for the laugh. So questions about qualia are a matter of life and death for you? You're taking philosophy too seriously...

It's always a matter of life and death anyway. Where some people go wrong is in assuming that this covid crisis is something special, rare, extraordinary. — baker

I don't agree with this because pandemics which threaten to overwhelm medical resources are rare and extraordinary. And even if only in terms of the fear the pandemic engenders it is rare and extraordinary and would threaten our economies even if there were no lock-downs, because if thousands of people were dying and medical resources overwhelmed people would lock themselves down out of fear

I'm talking about life always being a matter of life and death anyway. It's a fact that people typically close their eyes to and behave as if all was well and as if life wasn't a matter of life and death. So that when push comes to shove, like in a health or economic crisis, people are caught off guard.

On the contrary, you're not taking it seriously enough.

Do your own research before sticking crap into your body. — MondoR

On the contrary, you're not taking it seriously enough. — baker

You take yourself very seriously, that's for sure, and you're a hero in your own mind, but to me you're just another coward running away from a needle, and rationalizing his fears.

Is it even worth it to engage with these people? — Xtrix

Usually not. To come to a belief like this requires a ton of indoctrination and confirmation bias, not to mention that you can find an echo chamber for just about any topic online nowadays so it’s a constant reinforcing and regurgitation of the same views and “evidence” for their view over and over again. They’ll move the goalposts for just about anything and will maintain their arguments by any means necessary.

There’s a saying that goes “I can’t reason you out of something that you didn’t reason yourself into first.” And I find myself calling back to that quote to check myself, and other people if I am arguing with them.

Who needs to ask you? I believe the President said you should have a booster. Your immunity is waning and you are a menace to mankind. Who knows how many people you are going to kill. You are an obedient lemming aren't you? What else will you do, if asked to? Take opioids? The FDA approved them. Has killed 10s of thousands of people. — MondoR

i had thought this was an exercise of satire, has this thread really dragged out all of the closet conspiracists? is that the reason for this many pages?

You take yourself very seriously, that's for sure, and you're a hero in your own mind, but to me you're just another coward running away from a needle, and rationalizing his fears. — Olivier5

Will the irony never end!

You're so far off the mark that I'm at a loss what else to say.

You're so far off the mark that I'm at a loss what else to say. — baker

Rather, I nailed you, reason for which you are now speechless...

Rather, I nailed you, reason for which you are now speechless... — Olivier5

And things like this are the reason why mankind doesn't deserve to be saved.

And things like this are the reason why mankind doesn't deserve to be saved. — baker

Cowards with a big mouth and a tiny brain don't deserve to be saved alright. They are a waste of perfectly fine vaccine.

, check this post.

There are already situations where whatever vaccinations are mandatory and have been for some time. Like hospitals, nursing homes, kindergartens, schools, military, whatever. And there are situations where COVID-19 vaccines are being made mandatory, as per whatever current (scientific) recommendations. In some cases, frequent testing is accepted.

Similarly, standard protocols are implemented here and there, like restaurants, grocery stores, whatever. Commonsensical minor inconveniences — mask, distance, sanitize — yet has fools misbehaving.

Dragging all unvaccinated off to a facility and inoculating them at gunpoint is a rather extraordinary measure beyond the above, one that you might expect would lead to violence (if the behavior we've seen from deniers thus far is an indication), might lead to secret cults hiding, who knows what. What if some of them are afraid fearful anxious, say, because of the long-running mis/dis/malinformation campaigns, or maybe just needle-phobic? Typically, health departments have some goal, like 80% immunized or whatever, but, maybe 100% will become the norm some time, depending on political thrust/will and scientific findings.

If the vocal pro-vaccers believe they are so right, so superior to the unvaccinated, then what on earth is stopping them from passing laws in accordance with that? — baker

They are called vaxcsists. And nothing is stopping them from doing that, other than their inability to make it a reality. But you can be certain they are working on it right now.

From what I have heard there are already people getting exemption certificates from doctors and a market in fake vaccine certificates.

There’s a saying that goes “I can’t reason you out of something that you didn’t reason yourself into first.” — Ignance

I like that -- thanks.

i had thought this was an exercise of satire, has this thread really dragged out all of the closet conspiracists? is that the reason for this many pages? — Ignance

The original purpose was different -- but apparently it's hit a nerve.

You take yourself very seriously, that's for sure, and you're a hero in your own mind, but to me you're just another coward running away from a needle, and rationalizing his fears. — Olivier5

To be fair to @Baker, she has been vaccinated.