The thought of this amuses me as it's a fairly lightweight composition. — Tom Storm

Be that as it may, some people did go mad about it.

Some people also think Das Wohltemperierte Clavier is "deep".

Which brings us back to the theme of listening to classical music for hedonic purposes.

For existential feelings that threaten to overwhelm, I would choose the largo movement from Shostakovich's Fifth Symphony. Or maybe the adagio from Mahler's unfinished 10th symphony. — Tom Storm

I don't find them particularly moving. But that's probably because I'm actually such an optimistic person!

Simon Rattle conducting.

Oh dear, Sir Rattle got so old since I last saw him!! How time flies!

Thought some might be interested in this:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/sep/27/gorton-manchester-camerata-orchestra-helps-people-with-dementia-write-music

...the 82-year-old has been back in the monastery for something that at first sounds unlikely: a songwriting session for people living with dementia. It went so well that his daughter, Pauline Rawlins, now calls him “Gorton’s McCartney”. She is delighted the Camerata has come to Gorton: “Usually we don’t get things like this here.”

Asked to brainstorm the theme of autumn, her dad mused that “it comes and goes” – a line the Camerata’s musicians quickly improvised into a rather melancholic song, with percussion provided by the other participants and their carers, as well as music therapists.

Classical music just must -- must -- have an element of snobism to it. Trying to make it seem like something that can be accessible to plebeians -- that just misses the point.

Classical music just must -- must -- have an element of snobism to it. Trying to make it seem like something that can be accessible to plebeians -- that just misses the point. — baker

Like literature, yes? Like this?

"Good writing, good books, literature, just must -- must -- have an element of snobism to it. Trying to make it seem like something that can be accessible to plebeians -- that just misses the point."

Aspirational achievement lies within the capacity of everyone, and the appreciation of it I'd call taste and discernment, which anyone can learn and do. And high achievement and the appreciation of it does have some element. But not snobism, which is essentially ignorance's preening dance to compensate for itself.

The value of the classical is proved most simply by its endurance, that it touches and awakens something of value. And only a fool, an ignorant one, mocks it with the name of snobbery.

You might like this about 'musical segregation':

Throughout his career, Nigel Kennedy has had run-ins with what he calls the “self-appointed wielders of power”. The latest came last week, when he pulled out of a gig at the Royal Albert Hall two days before showtime, accusing organisers Classic FM of preventing him performing a Jimi Hendrix tribute, which they deemed “unsuitable for our audience”.

“This is musical segregation,” he said as the news broke. “If it was applied to people, it would be illegal. If that type of mentality is rampant in the arts, then we still haven’t fixed the problem of prejudice. This is much more serious than my feathers being a bit ruffled. Prejudice in music is completely dreadful. They’re effectively saying that Hendrix is all right in the Marquee Club, but not in the Albert Hall.”...

...as a compromise, he agreed to perform Four Seasons, with Chineke!, an orchestra of young black and ethnically diverse musicians, if he could also do Hendrix’s Little Wing in the style of pastoral composer Vaughan Williams...

Kennedy argues that for all Hendrix’s “mind-blowing” guitar-playing, his genius extends to composition. “The songs he wrote and forms he took were very different … more free-flowing structure, loosening of the edges. A groundbreaker.”
— Guardian - Nigel Kennedy - Classic FM fight

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2021/sep/28/nigel-kennedy-classic-fm-fight-hendrix-beethoven-vivaldi-des-oconnor-duke-ellington

***

Nigel Kennedy plays a barnstorming version of Jimi Hendrix’s “Purple Haze”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eg_uEQdtn9U

Crossover violin virtuoso Nigel Kennedy has spent the past 30 years interpreting the works of legendary rock guitarist Jimi Hendrix. Here, accompanied by the Polish Chamber Orchestra, Nigel Kennedy puts his unique personal spin on Jimi Hendrix’s classic song “Purple Haze” during a concert at La Citadelle in Carcassonne, France, on July 17, 2005.

[ Spoiler Alert -
Spine chilling, thrilling ending...at 7:34...with audience joining in...clapping as music...as one.
But you need to watch/listen from start to really feel this. Like any climax :fire: ]

Like literature, yes? Like this?

"Good writing, good books, literature, just must -- must -- have an element of snobism to it. Trying to make it seem like something that can be accessible to plebeians -- that just misses the point." — tim wood

Of course.

Aspirational achievement lies within the capacity of everyone, and the appreciation of it I'd call taste and discernment, which anyone can learn and do.

No. If you would be born and raised in an old-fashioned European culture, one of the things that the educational system (even a public educational system) would make sure that you learn is that not everyone was born equal, and that there is a very clear limit to what a person of a particular background can do, in all areas of life, and also in terms of ability to properly appreciate art (where one's disadvatange becomes most apparent).

The elite has always had a "pearls before swine" attitude toward the commoners.

And high achievement and the appreciation of it does have some element. But not snobism, which is essentially ignorance's preening dance to compensate for itself.

The value of the classical is proved most simply by its endurance, that it touches and awakens something of value. And only a fool, an ignorant one, mocks it with the name of snobbery.

Why, indeed, the European elites agree with you on that. They surely don't consider themselves "snobs", but as possessing that "something" that cannot be learned, but which one must be born and bred with. And people born in rural areas and of low socio-economic backgrounds are by default exempt from having that "something" or ever attaining it.

Indeed, in more recent times, a part of the elite has been trying to popularize art and to "raise the spirit of the masses". But the condescension with which they do it! "You are a swine and you will always be a swine, you must never forget that. And know that we are so kind as to throw some of our pearls before you, swine." These people would pat you on the head, as if you were an imbecile, if only they wouldn't be too disgusted to touch you.

You should read The Elegance of the Hedgehog which also touches on this elitism.

Aspirational achievement lies within the capacity of everyone, and the appreciation of it I'd call taste and discernment, which anyone can learn and do. And high achievement and the appreciation of it does have some element. — tim wood

People can aspire to achieve X. But I am not convinced it lies within everyone's capacity.
What is the 'element' you refer to ?

This discussion has been thought-provoking; incorporating and swaying away from its title.
It would spoil the flow to start another thread, probably.
Philosophy of aesthetics can lead anywhere.

Related to the topic of 'aspirational achievement', I found this abstract of an article ( below).
If we have as a goal, a life well lived, we should, arguably, try to savour all kinds of everything.
Is there a fear attached to going beyond one's little word...of becoming something else, an other.
How often do we hear a ''That's not for me, I hate classical/pop/jazz...!"
Our own minds can limit us.

Unfortunately, and perhaps ironically, I don't have access to the full article...

I argue that we are subject to ‘aesthetic luck’ in four senses: constitutive, upbringing, sociogeographic, and circumstantial. I review evidence from our practices, philosophy, and science. I then consider what challenges aesthetic luck raises to the communicability of aesthetic judgments, the formation of one’s aesthetic character, and the goal of a life well lived, as well as possible answers to those challenges. — Oxford Academic: The Monist - Aesthetic Luck

What is the 'element' you refer to ? — Amity

If the evidence of some Youtube videos be trustworthy, even the beasts appreciate some classical music - they not snobs nor subject to snobbery. The entire notion of music being in itself a matter of class is absurd, having nothing to do with music. Akin to saying that girls cannot "do" maths. What element? I did not have anything particular in mind, but curiosity, willingness, and an openness might do for starters.

James Rhodes is an engaging pianist with some Youtube videos. Among them the fugue from BWV 564, here. He starts to play at about 1:30:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cL1urNVVJCs&t=176s
As a deliberate experiment I planted a restive three-year-old in front of it, and she was transfixed. Almost a bet-you-can't-eat-just-one moment.

Try it yourself: recover for a moment your inner three-year-old and allow yourself to be bumped into by the music and tumbled and tickled by it in delight. In an adult of course, we might call that "engagement." A good chance you will be engaged by it, even drawn into it. (It is preceded by a prelude/toccata, more adult, but lyrical and imo the more substantial, here:)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bmX5ZoX9Po
If you try these, do you not feel the draw of them?

The Purple Haze video is amazing. The music itself not my cup of tea, but the spirit imo engaging a Beethoven or Mozart, perhaps the one somewhat sternly, and Mozart jumping on his chair. I hear in it, though, Irish folk rhythms, and some Stravinsky, here, at 7:55 and following for as long as patience allows:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOZmlYgYzG4

Try it yourself: recover for a moment your inner three-year-old and allow yourself to be bumped into by the music and tumbled and tickled by it in delight. In an adult of course, we might call that "engagement." A good chance you will be engaged by it, even drawn into it. (It is preceded by a prelude/toccata, more adult, but lyrical and imo the more substantial, here:)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bmX5ZoX9Po
If you try these, do you not feel the draw of them? — tim wood

Brother Wood, I already know you hold a weak supposal of my worth. What would you expect of me? That in weak plebeian fashion I defend myself, work hard to earn your recognition and your mercy?

James Rhodes is an engaging pianist with some Youtube videos. — tim wood

Yes. Thanks again for introduction.

As a deliberate experiment I planted a restive three-year-old in front of it, and she was transfixed. Almost a bet-you-can't-eat-just-one moment. — tim wood

Yes well. I can't help but think of other 3yr olds fixed to the spot by poverty, hunger and illness.
Different worlds, needs and wants.
Still, I get your point...

Try it yourself: recover for a moment your inner three-year-old and allow yourself to be bumped into by the music and tumbled and tickled by it in delight. In an adult of course, we might call that "engagement." — tim wood

Well, that didn't happen - my inner child in hiding.
However, a tired adult in the evening was mesmerised.

I hear in it, though, Irish folk rhythms, and some Stravinsky, here, at 7:55 and following for as long as patience allows:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOZmlYgYzG4 — tim wood

Yes, I can hear it. Thanks for drawing it to my attention. How on earth did that connection click with you.
Your musical memory magnetised?

I haven't listened to Britten's 'War Requiem', have you ?
I was looking for Owen's poem 'Futility' within but perhaps will need to listen to the whole piece.
Found it. *
Listened to part of this - but my ears are turning off... "Not for me"...
[ Edit: I meant the music not the letter as read, here:

Benjamin Britten's "War Requiem": A Letter From Wilfred Owen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTlGGqR5jUU

At Britten's request, there was no applause following the performance.[14] It was a triumph, and critics and audiences at this and subsequent performances in London and abroad hailed it as a contemporary masterpiece.[15]

Writing to his sister after the premiere, Britten said of his music, "I hope it'll make people think a bit." On the title page of the score he quoted Wilfred Owen:

My subject is War, and the pity of War.

The Poetry is in the pity ...

All a poet can do today is warn.

***

The work consists of six movements:

Requiem aeternam (10 minutes)
Requiem aeternam (chorus and boys' choir)
"What passing bells" (tenor solo) – Owen's "Anthem for Doomed Youth"
Kyrie eleison (chorus)

Dies irae (27 minutes)
Dies irae (chorus)
"Bugles sang" (baritone solo) – Owen's "But I was Looking at the Permanent Stars"
Liber scriptus (soprano solo and semi-chorus)
"Out there, we walked quite friendly up to death" (tenor and baritone soli) – Owen's "The Next War"
Recordare (women's chorus)
Confutatis (men's chorus)
"Be slowly lifted up" (baritone solo) – Owen's "Sonnet On Seeing a Piece of our Heavy Artillery Brought into Action"
Reprise of Dies irae (chorus)
* Lacrimosa (soprano and chorus) interspersed with "Move him, move him" (tenor solo) – Owen's "Futility"

Offertorium (10 minutes)
Domine Jesu Christe (boys' choir)
Sed signifer sanctus (chorus)
Quam olim Abrahae (chorus)
Isaac and Abram (tenor and baritone soli) – Owen's "The Parable of the Old Man and the Young"
Hostias et preces tibi (boys' choir)
Reprise of Quam olim Abrahae (chorus)

Sanctus (10 minutes)
Sanctus and Benedictus (soprano solo and chorus)
"After the blast of lightning" (baritone solo) – Owen's "The End"

Agnus Dei (4 minutes)
Agnus Dei (chorus) interspersed with "One ever hangs" (chorus; tenor solo) – Owen's "At a Calvary near the Ancre"

Libera me (23 minutes)
Libera me (soprano solo and chorus)
Strange Meeting ("It seemed that out of battle I escaped") (tenor and baritone soli) – Owen's "Strange Meeting"
In paradisum (organ, boys' chorus, soprano and mixed chorus)

Conclusion – Requiem Aeternam and Requiescant in Pace (organ, boys' choir and mixed chorus)

— Wiki: War Requiem

The entire notion of music being in itself a matter of class is absurd, having nothing to do with music. Akin to saying that girls cannot "do" maths. What element? I did not have anything particular in mind, but curiosity, willingness, and an openness might do for starters. — tim wood

Curious about this ?

SABATON - Great War (Official Lyric Video)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mt4B5Z8uLA

The band's main lyrical themes are based on war, historical battles, and acts of heroism[35]—the name is a reference to a sabaton, knight's foot armor.

I haven't listened to Britten's 'War Requiem', have you ? — Amity

I've tried; I don't have the patience for it. I've also read some history of WWI, and while the music might be meaningful for some, it for me barely touches the horrors. And Sabaton seems a riff on Carmina Burana - either way, superficial to my ear. An interesting fact from one book. The water table in the lowlands of Belgium and France is high and years of shelling turned the trenches to a kind of mud sea. The fact recounted is that 90,000+ Allied soldiers disappeared into the muck and from time to time a corpse would "swim" out of it into a trench, and never mind what the rats gnawed. And that just the ambience without the excitement of battle or shelling or gas.

From "Counterattack," Siegfried Sasoon.

"....We held their line,
With bombers posted, Lewis guns well placed,
And clink of shovels deepening the shallow trench.
The place was rotten with dead; green clumsy legs
High-booted, sprawled and grovelled along the saps
And trunks, face downward, in the sucking mud,
Wallowed like trodden sand-bags loosely filled;
And naked sodden buttocks, mats of hair,
Bulged, clotted heads slept in the plastering slime.
And then the rain began,—the jolly old rain!"

Britten has composed music a little easier to listen to - although I find all of his difficult. Four Sea Interludes, here, perfectly musical but challenging:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J20ROYLZfX0
----------------

Your musical memory magnetised? — Amity

In my yout', popular music was presented on the 45s that replaced 78s. Any tired adult would know what they are: in trust you know. And each had an A and a B side, the group's/artist(s)' names listed on the label on each side. And young men - never girls - would memorize hundreds of 45s, A side, B side, who did 'em, and test each other for sport. And nothing new there; people memorize all kinds of things. For my part I listened to classical music - much easier, only the hundred greatest to become familiar with and that list pretty much constant and always on the radio. No "top 40" always changing. So I can sometimes identify who or what I'm hearing within three seconds at most. But a professional musician can certainly do 100 times better or more, sometimes a fraction of a second enough for a good guess.

I do not think for a moment that Jimi Hendrix borrowed anything from Stravinsky, but at the same time as a pro he would have heard "Rite of Spring" somewhere, somehow, and had parts of it in his head, as any musician has hundreds of hours of music in his or her head.

Thanks for all of this. Especially:

Britten has composed music a little easier to listen to - although I find all of his difficult. Four Sea Interludes, here, perfectly musical but challenging:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J20ROYLZfX0 — tim wood

A perfect choice of a video -
I listened and watched in sheer delight.
Shared it here:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/602411

:sparkle:

From my Youtube likes:

Rosalyn Tureck plays Bach Capriccio BMV 992 "On the Departure of His Beloved Brother"


Rosalyn Tureck plays Bach English Suite No 3 in G minor BWV 808


I like her delicate, flowing staccato.

Ginastera: Violinkonzert ∙ hr-Sinfonieorchester ∙ Hilary Hahn ∙ Andrés Orozco-Estrada


A recent recording, and a recent discovery for me. (This gorgeous concerto seems to be rarely performed - probably because it's so damned hard, technically and emotionally.)


As for fidelity to composer's intentions, some classical musicians (Richter?) even bristle at being called interpreters, insisting that they merely perform what the composer wrote. Whether they really believe it (I can see how one might) or being coy, it's clearly not true that there isn't a good deal of interpretation involved even in the most scholarly and persnickety performance.

And I think a good piece of music has enough life of its own to survive a variety of good interpretations and even reinterpretations. I draw a line at Stokie's heavy-handed Romantic extravaganzas, but I can very well enjoy modern instrument Bach performances, alongside period ones, and even various adaptations and transformations (like one of my favorite jazz albums, Blues on BACH.)

P.S. Or speaking of Britten, here is one of my favorites: his brilliant take on one of Dowland's lachrymose songs - appropriately titled Lachrymae:



Respectful and personal.

sometimes I am shocked into intense lasting pleasure (superior to even the best sex) by transcendent artistry. It is this that I seek as a listener. — magritte

Talking about being 'transported' or music that 'sends' you...
I posted a question here:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/603578
Re: a Guardian article of someone's playlist. An example given of best music to have sex to.

It reminded me of comments here - and wondered if anyone had an example of the most erotic classical music ? The sexiest.
Orgasmic moments...as the music comes to a climax ?
No intimate details required :yikes:
Unless you feel that way inclined...

The Fairy Garden, from the Mother Goose suite
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5x-u7iw7W1Y

Bolero, of course, if a person isn't already tired of it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_pSJOkmYBA

Vltava (The Moldau), here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6kqu2mk-Kw
But the Moldau one of six tone poems in Ma Vlast.

Pohjola's Daughter
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61r_i-ZilT4

The Sorcerer's Apprentice
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxH-nY3iq7g

@tim wood, much historical comment has been made about Glenn Gould's interpretations/recordings of Bach, especially of the Goldbergs. I have listened to them many times, without having been able to discern what all the fuss is about, and so have remained curious. (Though I appreciate "art music", I am not very well educated about the appreciation thereof.) Since you seem a fairly well educated appreciator of music, would you care to take a shot at enlightening me?

The Fairy Garden, from the Mother Goose suite
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5x-u7iw7W1Y

Bolero, of course, if a person isn't already tired of it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_pSJOkmYBA

Vltava (The Moldau), here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6kqu2mk-Kw
But the Moldau one of six tone poems in Ma Vlast. — tim wood

Again, a joy to watch the orchestra as they play.

1. Ravel's Le jardin féerique (4:10) - so beautiful and calming; slow and serene for most part.
2. Ravel's Bolero - BBC Proms (14:17) - again intriguing to watch/feel as the music stirs the senses. Intensity increasing. Yes, I'd heard it before and yes, even Barenboim seemed a a bit bored to start with - arms folded then a mere flickering gesture - but still intent, more alive as climax reached.
3. Vitava - The Moldau (14:10). Amazing - strong and joyful - conductor fully engaged. Then a quiet flow from about 5:43 - 8:37 when wow, everything took off - wonderful right to the end.

--------

About a billion years ago, I visited a friend who had music playing in the background.
Afterwards, I discovered it had been one of Bruckner's Symphonies. No idea which one.
So, I had a look today and found this:

In a concert review, Bernard Holland described parts of the first movements of Bruckner's sixth and seventh symphonies as follows: "There is the same slow, broad introduction, the drawn-out climaxes that grow, pull back and then grow some more – a sort of musical coitus interruptus."[45] — Wiki: Bruckner

Anton Bruckner, Symphony No 7 in E major, 1 - Allegro moderato (22:53)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ungh7fl93lI

I have listened to them many times, — Michael Zwingli

"Trust yourself. You know more than you think you do."* And in listening to these, a lot more than most (who don't, or never have). The fuss: Like the fellow looking at a painting by Vermeer, seeing it all, saying he doesn't see what's special about it, it being just a picture of a heavy-set girl pouring some milk (The Milkmaid) (zoom version)

https://artsandculture.google.com/asset/the-milkmaid/9AHrwZ3Av6Zhjg?hl=en&ms=%7B%22x%22%3A0.5126563038562253%2C%22y%22%3A0.2564901207310762%2C%22z%22%3A9.5%2C%22size%22%3A%7B%22width%22%3A1.5529297954025858%2C%22height%22%3A0.6412253018276906%7D%7D

But just look at it!

My own story of appreciation is about the singer Tony Bennett, in his 90s if still alive. I paid him zero attention - who cares about another lounge singer - until he published a series of collaborations with other popular singers. And it was clear in the juxtaposition of these "great" singers alongside of him, that compared with him they knew nothing about singing. They would sing first, and then him, and in one case even just the way he drew in his breath for his first note was more masterful, and contained more understanding of the music, than the other singer's whole effort. For him it is all feeling; he nails it and they don't even have a hammer. Btw, I only know of two singers who kept up with him, Christina Aguilera, and a brilliant American Idol contestant, Melinda Doolittle, a sampling here and worth the listen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Py5p7jztyUA

So you hear (the performance of) the Bach. And hearing the Bach think little more about it - but it's a version of perfection the appreciation of which is gained through an open and attentive listening and also through the experience of imperfect or lesser versions. And there is a lot of this perfection in the world, though often realized in the mundane and the standardized and thus overlooked. And it strikes me - that I'll share with Amity as well - that appreciation of the other is also the other's enabling thee and me to appreciate ourselves.

*Dr. Spock.

So you hear (the performance of) the Bach. And hearing the Bach think little more about it - but it's a version of perfection the appreciation of which is gained through an open and attentive listening and also through the experience of imperfect or lesser versions. — tim wood

I have always found it much more difficult to distinguish preformances of Baroque music, when played by two competent musicians, in contrast to, say, two performances of Romantic or even Classical music, in which there seems to have been much more latitude for individual expression.

And it strikes me - that I'll share with Amity as well - that appreciation of the other is also the other's enabling thee and me to appreciate ourselves. — tim wood

Quite profound. I will be heading down East tomorrow morning with a buddy to canoe the Damariscotta and Penobscot Bay. I will ponder that as I paddle...

Harb plays BWV 565, here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jtuTCy8RXg
An amazing performance. — tim wood

I missed this one.
It is just what my mood needs. Right. Now. Perfect.
Thank you :sparkle:

Stories of appreciation.

My own story of appreciation is about the singer Tony Bennett, in his 90s if still alive. I paid him zero attention - who cares about another lounge singer - until he published a series of collaborations with other popular singers. — tim wood

Funny thing how 'zero attention' can change to 'deep appreciation'. Is it all in the timing ?

And it strikes me - that I'll share with Amity as well - that appreciation of the other is also the other's enabling thee and me to appreciate ourselves. — tim wood

What a lovely thought. Uplifting even. Appreciate :sparkle:

@Amity

a sort of musical coitus interruptus. — Wiki: Bruckner

Well, I think for a critique of Bruckner it's hard to improve on this, saying a multi-layered lot in a very small compass. And it applies to all of Bruckner's symphonies.

I wonder if as with me "The Fairy Garden" pulls you back to rehear and re-listen. I hear in it a remembrance, a sad, yearning, but celebratory appreciation of magic lost. As if the garden were a living temple to lost sensibilities, to be visited but never, not ever, again occupied.

And classical music seems to be about that. Creating the instantaneous desire to hear the next note, and to hear how the phrase will resolve - even if heard a dozen times before. In a way, then, noted to Mr. Zwingli, appreciation of music seems also about the music's enabling us to appreciate ourselves.

...it applies to all of Bruckner's symphonies. — tim wood

You've listened to them all ?
From the little I've read, Bruckner was seldom satisfied with his work.

This apparent dichotomy between Bruckner the man and Bruckner the composer hampers efforts to describe his life in a way that gives a straightforward context for his music. Hans von Bülow described him as "half genius, half simpleton".[2] Bruckner was critical of his own work and often reworked his compositions. There are several versions of many of his works. — Wiki: Bruckner

--------

I wonder if as with me "The Fairy Garden" pulls you back to rehear and re-listen. I hear in it a remembrance, a sad, yearning, but celebratory appreciation of magic lost. As if the garden were a living temple to lost sensibilities, to be visited but never, not ever, again occupied. — tim wood

I have listened to it again. There are special qualities which I could never have described in the way you have. So poetic. Not sure I understand what you mean by 'never, not ever, again occupied'.
And why then to say '...And classical music seems to be about that...'

--------

...appreciation of music seems also about the music's enabling us to appreciate ourselves. — tim wood

I have never thought of 'music' in these terms before.
How does appreciation of Bruckner or a 'Manson' * enable anyone to appreciate themselves ?

* https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/604714

Funny thing how 'zero attention' can change to 'deep appreciation'. Is it all in the timing ? — Amity

It comes from a listening combined with an understanding of what's being heard. With Tony Bennett I simply had not understood, nor known enough to have cared.

You've listened to them all ? — Amity

Yes, not too hard when they're packaged together on CDs.

Not sure I understand what you mean by 'never, not ever, again occupied'. — Amity

Well, it is called "the fairy garden." It summons to me places and times of magic that belong to a child, but that an adult can only remember. But that's just me; how would you describe it?

And why then to say '...And classical music seems to be about that...' — Amity

Not the best segue, But music as music, and for me classical music more usually, makes me want to both hear and know what comes next, even if I already know it. An interesting experience was listening to La Boheme while reading the libretto at the same time. Interesting because (as I figured out later) I'm an American consumer/listener with American understandings of the tropes of both music and language. Which is not Italian. Although knowing what was coming both musically and dramatically, I could not reconcile that with what I was reading and hearing. And part of me as I listened was thinking, "This is a problem: how does the composer get out of this box he's built for himself?" And of course Puccini does! Btw, I was listening/reading with someone else not familiar with the opera. Jussi Bjorling & Victoria de la Angeles, Beecham, on CD, an electric performance and experience.

How does appreciation of Bruckner or a 'Manson' * enable anyone to appreciate themselves ? — Amity

I'd answer, and not being evasive but I'm thinking you already know.

Not sure I understand what you mean by 'never, not ever, again occupied'.
— Amity
Well, it is called "the fairy garden." It summons to me places and times of magic that belong to a child, but that an adult can only remember. But that's just me; how would you describe it? — tim wood

I listened to it again, this time without watching the orchestra. I wasn't summoned to magical places that only belong to children. Adults can find magic in the music. But my mind was still in thinking mode - trying to answer the question of how I would describe it. Another time I will simply listen...

Words jotted down quickly as the music progressed:
wistful, other-worldly, lifting up, spirit lightly, sparkly, 'Peter Pan!', magical, opening-up, wide expanse, possibilities, becoming stronger, building to climax, 'There!' - destination reached.
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So, I wanted to find out more about Ravel's 'Mother Goose Suite'.
I hadn't appreciated that 'The Fairy Garden' was indeed the Finale.
From:
http://www.favorite-classical-composers.com/mother-goose-suite.html#:~:text=Ravel%27s%20Mother%20Goose%20Suite.%20Delicate%20Childhood%20Stories.%20The,orchestral%20ballet%20version%20made%20it%20well-known%20and%20popular.

The embedded video:
Ma Mere l'Oye: V.Tableau: Laideronnette, Impératrice des Pagodes-VI.Apotheose: Le Jardin Féerique
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vq6hAQJaRA&t=8s

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How does appreciation of Bruckner or a 'Manson' * enable anyone to appreciate themselves ?
— Amity
I'd answer, and not being evasive but I'm thinking you already know. — tim wood

Well, I might already know - somewhere in the depths - but it isn't obvious to me.
Following the breadcrumb trail:

Funny thing how 'zero attention' can change to 'deep appreciation'. Is it all in the timing ?
— Amity
It comes from a listening combined with an understanding of what's being heard. With Tony Bennett I simply had not understood, nor known enough to have cared. — tim wood

And hearing the Bach think little more about it - but it's a version of perfection the appreciation of which is gained through an open and attentive listening and also through the experience of imperfect or lesser versions. And there is a lot of this perfection in the world, though often realized in the mundane and the standardized and thus overlooked. And it strikes me - that I'll share with Amity as well - that appreciation of the other is also the other's enabling thee and me to appreciate ourselves. — tim wood

I've bolded what I consider the key parts related to Appreciation.
Timing. Understanding. Knowledge. Care. Attention. Degrees of perfection. Comparisons. Judgements. Relating. Enabling.

Comparing different versions of the same piece is perhaps one way of finding the 'more perfect' but most times we take shortcuts and listen to a few recommendations. Time is short.
And it is in giving time to listen to others that we can gain some kind of understanding of preferences.
In music generally.

I am intrigued by what @Pinprick said about his liking for the music of Manson. Also that his current profile shows an alchemical symbol. So, a different kind of magic perhaps from the fairy garden ?
I hope there is a response to my questions, here:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/604714
All the better to understand... the gratitude and appreciation expressed.

Appreciating the other not just for who they are but how they can help us see or 'appreciate' ourselves and where we come from or stand. And where our next step might lead. Even if it is down the garden path, we can always stop and turn...

We might be in a better position to understand ourselves when we can really listen to experiences in music and life. The rhythm and pace. From beginning to end.
Our own growth and development.

So often we stand in judgement of others without truly understanding them.
None of us are perfect but that doesn't stop us being and doing the best we can.
Appreciating the chance to learn more. To become, perhaps, a better version.
Be kind to yourself. The magic of music and fairy tales are not just for children.
We all need imagination and inspiration. And other people...

Thanks for listening :sparkle: