But why have so many Republicans refused to take their shots? Some, of course, have bought into the wild claims about side effects and sinister conspiracies that circulate on social media. But they’re probably a small minority.
Almost surely, mainstream right-wing media outlets, especially Fox News, have played a much bigger role. These outlets generally steer away from clearly falsifiable assertions — they have to worry about lawsuits. But they nonetheless want to do all they can to undermine the Biden administration, so they have done their best to raise doubts about the vaccines’ safety and effectiveness.
The effect has been to encourage many Republicans to think of getting vaccinated as an imposition, a cost they’re being asked to bear rather than a benefit they’re being offered — and, of course, something they’re primed to oppose precisely because it’s something Democrats want to see happen. Medical experts may say that going unvaccinated greatly increases your risk of getting seriously ill or dying, but hey, what do they know?
Why are the scientists who helped create the virus, running the vaccination program? Giant, extraordinary, cover-up for science's complicity in pandemic? — MondoR
How are they running the vaccination programme? — Down The Rabbit Hole
How are they running the vaccination programme? — Down The Rabbit Hole
People are being suspended or fired from their jobs for not being vaccinated. As long as vaccination is not actually legally mandatory, suspending or firing someone for not being vaccinated is illegal.But people generally do have an overwhelming and insurmountable fear and distrust of being abused and taken advantage of. They're just not always able to put it into exact words.
— baker
Sure, but I don't see how it would be reasonable to claim that anyone is being abused and taken advantage of in the current covid situation. — Janus
Indeed, in those times, solidarity is needed the most. But it is unreasonable to expect people to practice solidarity after beating into them for decades the doctrine of rugged individualism.I don't agree that any decisions should be made without considering others, without considering the community as a whole, because we all are dependent on the state in so many ways. Or if you prefer a less impersonal framing, we are all dependent on the community, and I think we owe it our allegiance to the utmost degree we can manage, especially in times of crisis, because those times are the times solidarity is most needed. — Janus
It does, precisely because in the current situation, some (many?) governments are not acting in accordance with laws. (Or else, existing laws have been found to be unconstitutional.)We disagree right here. The public health advice being acted on now does not contravene the "largely settled" "laws about issues of public health". — Janus
The response of right wingers surely depends on whether they live in a country where they have the majority or not.But why have so many Republicans refused to take their shots?
/.../
— Krugman, NY TIMES
Nails it. So much for principle. — Xtrix
People are being suspended or fired from their jobs for not being vaccinated. As long as vaccination is not actually legally mandatory, suspending or firing someone for not being vaccinated is illegal. — baker
But it is unreasonable to expect people to practice solidarity after beating into them for decades the doctrine of rugged individualism. — baker
It does, precisely because in the current situation, some (many?) governments are not acting in accordance with laws. (Or else, existing laws have been found to be unconstitutional.) — baker
This reminds of the claims made about Trump voters. I think it’s mostly true that we should be polite to one another, but to make blatantly bad choices for yourself, your family, the community, the environment, etc., simply because you’ve been made to feel stupid, or condescended to, or feel dismissed, or perceived to be looked down upon— that’s as irrational as the person is who’s doing the condescension.
So I say to the “vaccine-hesitant” crowd the same as to “on the fence” voters: grow thicker skin, ignore those who are rude, and find someone to educate you or answer your questions and concerns who’s more friendly, polite, and compassionate.
You probably won’t find much of that online. But there are plenty of credible web sites that do explain these things. That’s where I get my information. It’s very easy. If you’re looking to be educated on a philosophy forum, I think that’s a mistake. — Xtrix
Indeed, the people who ended up with strokes or dead from the vaccine experienced hardly much of an inconvenience.
Perhaps you don't see it, but you yourself are using the language of liberals and rightwingers. — baker
There is no force in the world that can convince you to accept some data that you want to reject. — Olivier5
the people who ended up with strokes or dead from the vaccine experienced hardly much of an inconvenience. — baker
In the case of mandatory vaccines, yes.That's an interesting point. If someone died as a result of being forced by the state to take the vaccine, should his/her family be entitled to retaliate? — Apollodorus
But you have no right to infect others — Xtrix
I'm sorry, but I have to laugh.And in certain democratic states which hold the protecting the right of the individual to be the primary concern of government, it is relevant. — Merkwurdichliebe
You are gravely missing the point. It's conveninent to harp on people's risk aversion because that's a simple truism.No, I am not. There are such risks with other vaccines and with all or most medications. Everyone is required to accept some risk in order to participate in work and life. What about the risks on construction and mining sites? What about the risks to health from the air-conditioning systems in high rise buildings? Or the risk of fire in such buildings? Or vehicle exhausts in the cities? The risks of air flight and indeed the risks of driving and traveling on public transport? There is always going to be some small percentage of unlucky people. But exactly the same is true of the natural world. We and the other animals we share this planet with are potentially subject to natural disasters. In fact we are by far the greatest risk to the other animals, unfortunately.
What justification do we have for demanding that life is absolutely risk free? On the other hand it doesn't seem unreasonable to require people to do everything they can to minimize risk if there is most likely to be little personal cost involved in doing so. I took the vaccine and I felt like shit for about 24 hours, but I'm not complaining. Most people I have spoken to didn't suffer even that, but just had a mildly sore arm for a day or two. — Janus
Enough said.You may not have noticed that Merkwurdichliebe just above dismisses 700,000+ US Covid deaths - and presumably 4.5 million worldwide - as any sort of evidence in favor of any limitation on his personal "rights." His a deep dishonesty or craziness or both. Ordinary civility with such a person, imo, a fundamental error. — tim wood
:up:Yet here we are, on an Internet philosophy website, where you would expect to attract people with a modicum of education and thoughtfulness, debating six or seven (essentially) anti-vaxxers.
It's pretty sad, and scary for the future. They of course cannot see this, and never will, but they're in the same boat as these other people. Why? — Xtrix
Fauci's fingerprints are everywhere at the crime scene. It's a massive crime against humanity that he is at all involved with anything. — MondoR
Where does Fauci or those running the vaccination programme come in? If I remember correctly, there was a photo of Fauci at the Wuhan lab. Is there any other evidence of his involvement? — Down The Rabbit Hole
Is it even worth it to engage with these people?
They're immune to facts and they will not change their minds no matter what happens, which is interesting psychologically. But should we engage for the sake of others who are rational yet "on the fence"?
I struggle with this. — Xtrix
People are being suspended or fired from their jobs for not being vaccinated. As long as vaccination is not actually legally mandatory, suspending or firing someone for not being vaccinated is illegal. — baker
You are gravely missing the point. It's conveninent to harp on people's risk aversion because that's a simple truism.
But the actual issue isn't risk aversion. It's a simplistic, zombified outlook on life that promises people a good life, but sooner or later lets them down, and then blames them, or, at most, shrugs its shoulders.
Also, see my comments about luck in my reply to Mr. Storm. — baker
The Right has generally supported the right of proprietors of businesses to hire and fire, for whatever reasons they like, as they see fit. And now it is mostly the Right that is squealing about it and calling it an infringement of individual rights. — Janus
Listening to you and other vocal pro-vaccers here at the forum is like listening to some of the high politicians in the country where I live, and in some other EU countries as well. The same cynical attitude, the same threats, the same simplificationism, the same not listening, the same diversions. — baker
But you have no right to infect others
— Xtrix
There you go, making wild accusations that I am going around infecting people with covid. Where is your hard evidence that I am doing that? — Merkwurdichliebe
People are being suspended or fired from their jobs for not being vaccinated. As long as vaccination is not actually legally mandatory, suspending or firing someone for not being vaccinated is illegal.
— baker
This is completely wrong. Ask United Airlines, who did exactly that. — Xtrix
Is it even worth it to engage with these people?
They're immune to facts and they will not change their minds no matter what happens, which is interesting psychologically. But should we engage for the sake of others who are rational yet "on the fence"?
I struggle with this.
— Xtrix
42 pages later, any nearer to the answer? — Down The Rabbit Hole
People are being suspended or fired from their jobs for not being vaccinated. As long as vaccination is not actually legally mandatory, suspending or firing someone for not being vaccinated is illegal.
— baker
This is completely wrong. Ask United Airlines, who did exactly that.
— Xtrix
What is wrong?
Did you see the actual notice of termination, the actual wording? — baker
Is it even worth it to engage with these people? — Xtrix
As long as vaccination is not actually legally mandatory, suspending or firing someone for not being vaccinated is illegal.As far as "seeing the actual notice of termination, the actual wording": no, I haven't. I don't work for these companies. But it's been reported pretty widely that some employees (though fairly few) have been terminated for not complying with vaccination policy. — Xtrix
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