There are places people with a vaccine can go that others without cannot. This is at different levels in different countries.

Maybe so, but I think you've been equally brainwashed - or you're just not thinking clearly - because the situation is not as extreme as when the virus first arose (I know this due to what I stated before and showing that I have done research into how vaccines are created and why it took so long for this one compared to flu vaccines which are pumped out every year with relative ease).

You have to wear the required uniform, follow strict orders and put up with things that many people would or could, not to be in the military. To take a harmless jab is nothing compared to the everyday rigours of service. You can still opt out if you want to.

because the situation is not as extreme as when the virus first arose — I like sushi

The situation is not as extreme largely on account of vaccination. Also people may be taking covid more seriously. This is a new situation and we learn as we go along. What possible justification could there be for saying that someone who accepts the official data regarding deaths and hospitalization from both covid and the vaccine is brainwashed? What other reliable source can there be? If there were no reliable source, then all bets would be off, and we would be truly fucked. But we have no good reason to believe that is so.

Again, this isn't about merely 'opting out'. We're talking about people who 'opt out' being marginalised based on their own personal position. We're taking about people being coerced (if 'effectively forced' is to strong for you) to take medication they don't wish to take.

The situation is not as extreme largely on account of vaccination. — Janus

Agreed. That isn't my point though.

If your personal position is based on antisocial thinking then you can expect some marginalization: In fact you are marginalizing yourself on account of some sense of entitlement. It comes down to expecting others to do the necessary heavy lifting, to take the necessary risk, however minimal that risk might be, it still amounts to a shirking of social responsibility, as I see it.

That's fine. I don't see it like that in this case myself. I'd be more or less likely to agree with you if the dangers were greater ... again this is down to personal judgement because there is no definitive line here. Just like with the more common debate on abortion we do need to draw a line somewhere, but the discussion around where that line is or should be is a difficult but necessary discussion to have (even more so the messier and more uncomfortable it is).

In any social group some people will carry the weight more than others, and in other situations the roles may very well be reversed. I can judge people on how they act but I don't particularly agree to coerce, manipulate or force them to act differently (especially if it is clearly against their own 'better judgement').

Covid is especially virulent because it was designed to be so by some stupid. effing scientists, the same ones that are running the stupid effing vax programs. — MondoR

Evidence? Whackdoodle insanity does no good and does do harm - is evil itself, being itself a lie. So. Evidence or be quiet.

People shouldn't be effectively forced to put something into their bodies. — I like sushi

Why not? Make your case. Let's sharpen it: there is no circumstance and no situation and no material such that a possible combination of the three would justify compelling a person to take that material into their body. None. That's the statement of your case; now make it!

That is provisionally mandatory: you can leave the army if you don't like it. — Janus

And what army of what country is that?

Covid is especially virulent because it was designed to be so by some stupid. effing scientists, the same ones that are running the stupid effing vax programs.
— MondoR
Evidence? Whackdoodle insanity does no good and does do harm - is evil itself, being itself a lie. So. Evidence or be quiet. — tim wood

Evidence? What, you've been asleep for a year? And I'm supposed to have guys like you running my life? Wackadoodle yes. The crazies have taken over.

Evience, evidence, evidence! Or you're just a crackpot crazy person.

Playing to absolutist arguments doesn't help. I was pointing out - see above - that the line is not distinct. If you think it is distinct go ahead and point out where the line is.

My case is that I don't see the current threat of Covid as justifying companies/governments to prevent people from working. I understand that you may disagree. I don't have a big problem with you disagreeing, but I would still ask where the line is and to what extent such ideas are best implemented?

I can sharpen the other sedge of the blade too if I wished. I don't really see the 'point' then though

Note: Calling people whackadoodle helps how? I see you follow this up with 'crazy'. What is the point of doing this (genuinely curious to know if you've actually put any thought into this or you have to invent a reason on the fly when I ask?)

Evience, evidence, evidence! Or you're just a crackpot crazy person. — tim wood

Conspiracy!! The last vestige of the stupid effing scientific community that tried to cover up.

I tell you what. Before trying to make the whole world a guinea pig for your insane experiment, at least pick up a newspaper. The EVIDENCE has been all over the news for 8 months! Even the illustrious (and totally corrupt) Dr. Fauxi has called for "further investigations". Of course, the CCP has burned all evidence including the whistleblowers, but the trail is a mile wide. It's ludicrous to ignore the overwhelming evidence, but if course science isn't interested in evidence, only protecting their godlike image they have nurtured so well.

All EVIDENCE points to the Wuhan Lab (and Dr. Fauci). There is not one scrap of evidence for a jump from a bat. It's all another "scientific" coverup, because what counts most is not human lives (opiods), but MONEY.

You make a claim, a reprehensible claim. I ask you to support it, and you evade it. That's a form of defensiveness I call - and others have called - crazymaking, a variety of dialectical total war. Unless you support your remark, you're not fit for discussion, being a mere crazymaker.

I'm not convinced by such reports yet as there is - as always - a lot of political nonsense going on between different states trying to gain an upper hand in some way. The whole issue with vaccine supply and Brexit in Europe showed some quite extraordinary political wrangling and silliness between France, The UK and the EU in general.

All EVIDENCE points to the Wuhan Lab (and Dr. Fauci). — MondoR

Riiiiight, the evil Dr. Fauci. Is it because his name is not Anglo-Saxon? And this evidence of yours, "all over the news." The only thing on this "all over the news" has been months of crazy-making and conspiracy theories. And of course there's no evidence, the CCP destroyed it or hid it. So the evidence is that there is no evidence, and that proves it! And you should be in a rubber room!

This is nominally a philosophy site, presumably a site and place for reason, not craziness. Try some!

I stated that the line isn't clear. What 'reprehensible claim' did I make? I did state that I don't believe people should be forced/coerced/bullied into taking medication. I'm not quite sure how I am to 'support' that remark? Of course there are situations where I'd argue for or against someone taking medication - ie. for taking Covid vaccine. I cannot think of a realistic situation off of the top of my head where I would make someone take something (other than as a parent).

Riiiiight, the evil Dr. Fauci. Is it because his name is not Anglo Saxon? — tim wood

Actually, forget it. Comments like this repulse me.\

bye bye until next month. you're in the sin bin :)

[

I'm not convinced by such reports yet as there is - as always - a lot of political nonsense going on between different states trying to gain an upper hand in some way. The whole issue with vaccine supply and Brexit in Europe showed some quite extraordinary political wrangling and silliness between France, The UK and the EU in general. — I like sushi

The whole world has become one big scam, and the crazies (really thugs) have taken over. I works advise you only trust your mother, assuming that she is not invested in Pharmaceuticals.

That this virus was created by mad scientists that are running loose is almost incontrovertible. For heaven sakes, there is a DARPA proposal to fund research to create exactly the type of virus that was created. It was turned down because it was sheer lunacy, so they took the job over to the CCP labs, where human life is pretty much worthless.

It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World, and we have the Crazies on this forum calling everyone else crazy.

conspiracy theories — tim wood

The last vestige of the Crazies.

You are so far out of touch with reality, that you don't even know that only the Crazies are still calling it a conspiracy theory.

Covid isn't particularly terrible — I like sushi

That and the other. And I asked you very specifically to respond and defend your two remarks. And you're wriggling like a weasel, or an eel. You merely want verbally jerk-off here; and that, and you, are thereby disgusting. You have your challenge. Try meeting it instead of evading it!

The whole world has become one big scam, and the crazies (really thugs) have taken over. I works advise you only trust your mother, assuming that she is not invested in Pharmaceuticals. — MondoR

I can understand from a US perspective. Having literal inside info into companies like Astra Zeneca I'm not convinced in any particular danger there when it comes to vaccine production.

That this virus was created by mad scientists that are running loose is almost incontrovertible. — MondoR

Almost isn't certainty. I wouldn't judge it as 'almost incontrovertible' though. I looked into it a while back and didn't see much other than speculation for or against. Suspicious? Yeah, but again, there is the political manipulation of governments and the sensationalism of mass media to create revenue. I'm more concerned about the later tbh

Almost isn't certainty. I wouldn't judge it as 'almost incontrovertible' though. I looked into it a while back — I like sushi

Look again. A lot more has been revealed. The best the scientists who were involved with the cover-up can do at this time is, 50-50. You gotta love them. If nothing else, they've got chutzbah, and a bunch of fanatical followers.

@MondoR,@I like sushi
Observe, gentle reader, how these two rats scurry when asked simply to defend their outrageous and disgusting claims and remarks. They can say what they want, but don't challenge them on any of it. And not least because apparently reason isn't anything they can do, only foolishness, invective, and evasion.

Observe, gentle reader, how these two rats scurry when asked simply to defend their outrageous and disgusting claims and remarks. They can say what they want, but don't challenge them on any of it. And not least because apparently reason isn't anything they can do, only, foolishness, invective, and evasion. — tim wood

ROFL Thank you. Humans.

That's right, a**hole. Anything but a substantive response. Your mask slips, and the grotesque reality of you becomes apparent. And all you had to do was to be responsive about a claim you made!

That's right, a**hole. Anything but a substantive response. Your mask slips, and the grotesque reality of you becomes apparent. And all you had to do was to be responsive about a claim you made — tim wood

You are such a joke. Too ignorant to even do a google search. Rofl. And people are supposed to listen to you??

https://www.wsj.com/articles/covid-19-coronavirus-lab-leak-virology-origins-pandemic-11633462827

This is an interesting point from Military.com:

Soldiers who have pending decisions on medical or religious exemptions will not face any adverse action.

So medical conditions are ok to refuse vaccine and also religious reasons. Not sure exactly how someone 'proves' a religious inclination though. In terms of jobs outside the military the ability to sue for such reasons would be implemented too I imagine.

The atheist with no underlying medical conditions who refuses though has no way to 'opt out' and retain their job.