The more I try to metaphilsophically analyze myself, the greater the impression of mine is that I have fallen into a general sense of apathy towards life itself. The most prominent concerns of a philosopher, being concerned with the 'good' and how one should go about it are not so prominent features of a life concerned with it, and are rather set aside for not going about attaining it with zest or haste. Namely the dictums of treating one's day as if it were your last, seem pretentious through a deeper desire to be free from all excessive wants or even needs in one's life.

Thus, I am forced to conclude that the Cynic was right after all in his or her practicality and efficiency at attaining what one would or can call an inner sense of peace with the world.

Is this something the reader finds worthy of commenting in the positive or negative? What are your thoughts?

Im somewhat unhappy with how the stoic inner calm and peace towards the world arises in my opinion. It seems to me that it's a difficult issue to talk about apathy.

Do you think that it's true that the stoic attains inner calm or peace through apathy? Is this a natural unavoidable attitude? Is apathy and attitude towards life worth displaying in your opinion?

Why all this apparent unhappiness and continued confusion over stoicism and its terminology ?

You have discussed this many times with e.g. @Ciceronianus in your thread here:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/6764/why-i-gave-up-on-stoicism/p1

I think that @Ciceronianus might describe himself as a pragmatic stoic and might have a succinct and clear response to hand.

Apart from that - if you are still troubled by fixing on one philosophy as a way of thinking about/behaving in life, then why do you need that ? Certainty ? Security ?

One problem at a time.
What are your actual daily living concerns ?
We are all faced with problems, some of which we can sort out by clear thinking.
It doesn't help to get mired in some dogmatic way of living or obsession.

There will always be changing circumstances and we need some kind of knowledge so that we can adapt. Also, a certain flexibility.
A practical way to live your own life as best you can - not necessarily by some theory or handed-down practice.
Self-knowledge and the ability to see the merits or value in adopting mixed methods...
Work out what is do-able for you. Then just do it, or don't.

But you know all this already - why keep asking ?

Namely the dictums of treating one's day as if it were your last, seem pretentious through a deeper desire to be free from all excessive wants or even needs in one's life. — Shawn

I think that this is about appreciating the day as it comes. Not taking life for granted.
Not worrying too much about the future cos your end could come sooner than you think.
Look out for that 3-legged elephant on an escalator :scream:

Edit: adding this, but I think you are already well-acquainted:
https://dailystoic.com/7-stoic-tenets-to-keep-in-mind-today/

every day affirmations of Marcus Aurelius or Epictetus. — Shawn

Could you please post a link to those?

I won't go into what they are but the thesis of this thread is that stoicism presents itself as a constant struggle (in my experience) with analyzing what is important to control in one's life. — Shawn

In discussions of S/stoicism, the point is often made that one needs to distinguish between what one can control and what one cannot control.
However, I do not know any reference to this in the writings of the ancient Stoics. Could you post it, please?

Do you think that it's true that the stoic attains inner calm or peace through apathy? — Shawn

Yesterday I was engaged in a sporting activity that didn’t go well and I remember feeling that I had a “heavy heart” when leaving it. That down in the dumps feeling quickly abated however when, da-ta-da-da!, STOICISM came to my emotional rescue. I had no control over the environment and conditions, or the other people involved, and it would only cause needless grief to fret over a past failure. So I focused on what I can control and reviewed my performance, and the choices I had made that day, in order to improve.

I don't like hearing that stoics have angst in their community, much less themselves. I want them out there holding the universe together and on the right track with their prayers and solemnity. Come on guys, get with the program. Jeesh!

And to think, I thought I held promise to join the ranks someday, after I pulled my head out of my ass.

Do you find yourself tired or relentlessly under siege with discerning what life or fate has in store for you? — Shawn

No.

Do you actually read to yourself affirmations every day about what to purpose to yourself in terms of ancient philosophy your intent towards and for what need? — Shawn

No. But maybe I should.

Due to this, do you struggle with a philosophical apathy to try to surmount the issue with an attitude towards life? — Shawn

Yes, but not due to that.

If so, then how did it work out for you? — Shawn

I'm too patient, and too lazy, hoping it happens without putting in the work.

Is this something the reader finds worthy of commenting in the positive or negative? What are your thoughts? — Shawn

I'm not so sure metaphilosophically analyzing the self is the right way to go about it. But I can definitely see how that would lead to apathy. I don't think cynicism follows from the inverse, though I myself suffer from it and do find some peace. So maybe I should not opine on the matter until such time as I eschew my cynicism. Waiting.

Do you think that it's true that the stoic attains inner calm or peace through apathy? Is this a natural unavoidable attitude? Is apathy and attitude towards life worth displaying in your opinion? — Shawn

I don't think so. I think objectivity (view from 10 million feet and 10 trillion years) is what will provide the inner calm or peace.

In regards to Stoicism, and this will come off as trite; but, modern day living is taxing on the Stoics mind.

By which I mean that it takes quite a lot of effort to quell the anxiety of making money enough for one's needs or taking care of a family or making time in one's schedule for appointments and family, AND on top of all this behaving in accordance with virtue.

That's mostly what I have in mind.

I guess the plain old simple truth is that I'm a depressed guy that has sought solence in Stoicism; but, the scale was tilted towards attaining Stoic apathy out of my natural disposition towards life and depression. That's about all I can say as the motivating factor of this thread, @Amity...

See,
http://classics.mit.edu/Epictetus/epicench.html
And, Marcus Aurelius Meditations.

Stoic Apathy

https://existentialcomics.com/comic/286

Regarding Stoic apathy, there's a very well known dictum of the Stoics to not demand that life happen as you wish it would; but, just the way that it does, and you shall go on well.

I find this reminder hard to accept at times, even though I'm a sage at Stoic apathy now due to it, jokingly.

By which I mean that it takes quite a lot of effort to quell the anxiety of making money enough for one's needs or taking care of a family or making time in one's schedule for appointments and family, AND on top of all this behaving in accordance with virtue. — Shawn

I might be living in an alternative universe, but I never saw the stoic as concerned about money, family, schedules, etc. I saw more proximity between stoicism and the houseless under a bridge than I did with the average wage slave.

it takes quite a lot of effort to quell the anxiety of making money enough for one's needs or taking care of a family or making time in one's schedule for appointments and family, AND on top of all this behaving in accordance with virtue. — Shawn

What do you think it means to behave 'in accordance with virtue' ?
How many do you think achieve this ?
It's not about being perfectly free from emotion, that's an impossibility.
But trying to control those harmful to yourself and others.
Like the total rage I talked about the other day. It wasn't helping me and I allowed it to take over my mind. Even with previous experience and a knowledge of different ways to manage it. We are only human. It's worse when you give yourself a hard time over it.
Negative natterings.

--------

https://iep.utm.edu/stoiceth/

'The Stoics held that virtue is the only real good and so is both necessary and, contrary to Aristotle, sufficient for happiness; it in no way depends on luck.

The virtuous life is free of all passions, which are intrinsically disturbing and harmful to the soul, but includes appropriate emotive responses conditioned by rational understanding and the fulfillment of all one’s personal, social, professional, and civic responsibilities.

The Stoics believed that the person who has achieved perfect consistency in the operation of his rational faculties, the “wise man,” is extremely rare, yet serves as a prescriptive ideal for all. The Stoics believed that progress toward this noble goal is both possible and vitally urgent.'

--------

As we've discussed before - it might be what the Stoics believed but we don't need to or follow the whole shebang.
We might not go on well or attain ALL our goals but the ability to follow a problem or decision-making process in a real and practical manner is important. Don't you think ?

Didn't we agree at one point that the Serenity Prayer, with or without a 'God', was a pretty good way to go ?

Doing the best we can...given some perfectly natural concerns and anxieties...low moods or worse. Hold on to the best, most useful ideas. Let go of the worst.

What sayest thou ?

What sayest thou ? — Amity

What are your thoughts? — Shawn

Consider time.

We are natural stoics wrt the past. Good or bad, we take it as it went. Currently, I am writing this, and I am stoical about the present too. It is what it is. Until it's shit, and then I want to escape; which is to say 'I want the future to be other than this'. Desire and fear are the push-me-pull-you pet of the failed stoic; they relate to the future. To be fearful of desire, or desirous of escaping fear is to be caught up in the world.

Be caught up in the world, therefore, while you can. There will be time enough to be a stoical corpse.

To be fearful of desire, or desirous of escaping fear is to be caught up in the world.

Be caught up in the world, therefore, while you can. There will be time enough to be a stoical corpse. — unenlightened

Hmmmm. I think I agree. And here I was, hoping I might find magic in stoicism. Maybe I should forget that shit and just get on with life. Embrace the suck, if you will.

Desire and fear are the push-me-pull-you pet of the failed stoic; they relate to the future. To be fearful of desire, or desirous of escaping fear is to be caught up in the world. — unenlightened

I have my concerns over this, with respect to finding little motivation or desire to become this way with respect to my fate or destiny or whatever nature or God has in store for me. I'm cautious and quite apathetic about these current events.

Be caught up in the world, therefore, while you can. There will be time enough to be a stoical corpse. — unenlightened

I say this with trepidation; but, isnt the lofty minded philosopher concerned with other more valuable or dare I say important issues than being caught up with the world?

One can be satisfied in their depression or current apathy, no?

One can be satisfied in their depression or current apathy, no? — Shawn

Well you are the expert in this, but you don't read satisfied.

ALL is best, though we oft doubt,
What th' unsearchable dispose
Of highest wisdom brings about,
And ever best found in the close.
Oft he seems to hide his face,
But unexpectedly returns
And to his faithful Champion hath in place
Bore witness gloriously; whence Gaza mourns
And all that band them to resist
His uncontroulable intent.
His servants he with new acquist
Of true experience from this great event
With peace and consolation hath dismist,
And calm of mind all passion spent. — John Milton

Samson Agonistes.

One can be satisfied in their depression or current apathy, no? — Shawn

I don't think one can be depressed, apathetic, and satisfied. But I could be wrong.

Well you are the expert in this, but you don't read satisfied. — unenlightened

It be a sulken sort of satisfaction. My memory commands me not to desire or fear too much as things are happening as they do with or without my influence on their happenings.

I think when there is commanding of self by self, it is a conflict; if there is an effort to be something, even/ especially to be stoical, then one is not stoical. But let's try to be stoical about this paradox - or let's not try and be stoical about it, as that would be more stoical. Stoicism occurs naturally when all passion is spent, but when passion is resisted, denied, repressed, unexpressed, it is not being spent but saved. One is like a miser who cannot repair his leaking roof because he is always saving for a rainy day.

By which I mean that it takes quite a lot of effort to quell the anxiety of making money enough for one's needs or taking care of a family or making time in one's schedule for appointments and family, AND on top of all this behaving in accordance with virtue. — Shawn

I can't imagine it was easier when Stoicism was a thing.

'A sulken sort of satisfaction' - what does that mean ? Resentful that you feel 'under command' not to do, feel or be something ? But that doesn't mean you can't control or influence some causes/effects of events, does it ? Why would it be your memory that commands you ? Memory of your interpretations of Stoicism and a perception of failure ? What ? A Higher Self ?

Your discussions can be a sort of Socratic sustenance. Keeping on going. A source of strength and nourishment. 'A Good Stew' as @180 Proof might write :sparkle:.
Working through stuff...

I guess you can be both content and not content at the same time.
Generally, I am comfortable in my surroundings but it is natural that particular thoughts arise about unsatisfactory states. About how we might have said or acted differently - for a better outcome for self and others.

Do you find yourself tired or relentlessly under siege with discerning what life or fate has in store for you? Do you actually read to yourself affirmations every day about what to purpose to yourself in terms of ancient philosophy your intent towards and for what need? Due to this, do you struggle with a philosophical apathy to try to surmount the issue with an attitude towards life? If so, then how did it work out for you? — Shawn

I find myself tired talking or thinking about same old, same old.
And seemingly never learning a damned thing, even if I have...
It can become discouraging if you think too much about it. I think that is why Marcus, man of action, gave himself limited time to set his mind straight before the daily grind. I can't remember but didn't he write in the mornings ?
I don't read or write daily affirmations.
There is no relentless 'siege' re what life has in store...having covered most of it, I am not so concerned.
Still naturally anxious - there is a need to keep an eye on the way I think/feel.
All the better not to become overwhelmed. I think 'talking' here and elsewhere with fairly sensible and fun people with life experience can help. Just as you are doing :smile:

Here's something to reflect on, stew over:

The Stoics believed that we should live mindfully, paying continual attention (prosoche) to our ruling faculty (hegemonikon).
This is also derived from their interpretation of Socrates. The Stoics place considerable emphasis on our ability to admit our weaknesses and fallibility, by reflecting on and criticizing our own character, in a constructive manner, in order to continually improve ourselves. — Donald Robertson: 3 Ideas the Stoics learned from Socrates

https://donaldrobertson.name/2018/04/18/three-ideas-the-stoics-learned-from-socrates/

We can admit our weaknesses but to dwell in them is not a recipe for contentment...
There's a time for everything.
You wanna dance :party:

In regards to Stoicism, and this will come off as trite; but, modern day living is taxing on the Stoics mind. — Shawn

No, that should be: Living is taxing on the modern stoic's mind.

The problem with so many modern-day stoics is that they are just that, stoics, with a lower key. They have abandoned the metaphysical underpinnings of Stoicism, which, however, are of vital importance for contextualizing Stoic ethics, making them actionable, without too much difficulty and regret. In contrast, the modern stoic lives in a cold, indifferent universe, believes it to be chaotic at some basic level, and he sees himself as a product of this universe. No wonder he has a lot of troubles and is apathetic.

One cannot believe in modern science and still be a Stoic.

My memory commands me not to desire or fear too much as things are happening as they do with or without my influence on their happenings. — Shawn

That's not a Stoic stance, although it's a stoic one.

What is modern Stoicism?

Below you’ll see a set of seven excellent responses from the Modern Stoicism Team. You’ll notice that they are not all in lock-step agreement on every single point, feature, or issue – and we should hardly expect them to be!  
After all, there were some interesting divergences and disagreements within the Stoic school as it developed over the course of centuries, and across multiple cultures, during antiquity. — Modern Stoicism

https://modernstoicism.com/symposium-what-is-modern-stoicism/

...here I was, hoping I might find magic in stoicism. Maybe I should forget that shit and just get on with life. Embrace the suck, if you will. — James Riley

I don't know what, if any, wizardry will be performed here - maybe suck and see ?
For anyone interested, starts online tomorrow !
Edit: have registered and stuff already out there :cool:

Stoic Week is an annual event that invites you to ‘live like a Stoic for a week’. It is run online and is completely free. Since 2012 over 25,000 people have signed up for Stoic Week. Participants complete a questionnaire before starting and another at the end that enable us to assess how much following Stoic life guidance has benefitted you. To date the results have consistently shown that people who participate see a reduction in negative emotions — Stoic Week starts Mon 18th October

https://modernstoicism.com/event/stoic-week-2021/

Stoicism occurs naturally when all passion is spent, (...) — unenlightened

I never viewed the Stoic as a Carpe Diem entity. I always thought Jordan Petersons lobster eating SSRI taking bloke was closer to what can be conceived as a Stoic.

They [modern-day stoics] have abandoned the metaphysical underpinnings of Stoicism, which, however, are of vital importance for contextualizing Stoic ethics, making them actionable, without too much difficulty and regret. — baker

This isn’t a very objectionable claim, being so oddly expressed, but it feels like I should object, so I will object, and demand that you at least try to substantiate it.

but I never saw the stoic as concerned about money, family, schedules, etc. — James Riley

And here I was, hoping I might find magic in stoicism. Maybe I should forget that shit and just get on with life. Embrace the suck, if you will. — James Riley

On the off chance the Stoics are "selling" something, it's not magic they're selling, but how to deal with the practical concerns of daily life and the world. And yes, they are applicable in today's world. I wish I had my book with me to provide an exact quote, but along the lines of "do not busy yourself with checking out what others have been up to, going to their homes, just to see what they're doing, and call it a productive day". They hate kissing asses to emperors, the governors of towns, celebrities or whatever titles in high society one possesses. If you aren't one of the titled individual now, then take care of what you have, and forget about trying to know what others are doing. (Today, it is like someone living in the social media world where life's affirmation is based on the filtered images presented to you by others as "daily normal life".

I was introduced to Stoicism in my college days -- never regretted one bit of it. It has taken good care of me, I'm happy to say. I work in a demanding, high stress field, but good pay. My brain has to work in top capacity all day. It's high capacity or I'm pretty shot. That's just me.

Not to say that the Stoics promised a life without stress, difficulties, hardships, or unhappiness. It's your attitude towards these events that would determine how your well-being will turn out in the end. They do not believe in life as a cruddy existence -- that belief belongs to the Cynics. But the Stoics believe that there will be bad days from time to time. So save your energy by not complaining about the first world problems -- you know, house too big so internet cannot reach your bedroom, too large to clean, paid gardener not doing a good job in the garden, scratch on the car because you went to the grocery store and someone touched your car with a shopping cart, bitter cucumber, that sort of problems.