Mostly, although I don't think anyone understands the consequences fully, because to do that would be to know the future. — Janus
People are NOT turned away from work when they have the flu … perhaps they should be tbh because I think that is wrong. I don’t see a measured approach now that we are more knowledgable about Covid. — I like sushi
I’m not saying, and have not said, that the vaccine isn’t effective. My point remains with allowing adults to make a choice or not. If private companies choose to stop people working then my position here becomes more hazy. I’ll grant you that. That they are right to do so, as you say, I just don’t agree. — I like sushi
Also, in case you missed it the first time, what about testing people for the virus instead? If employees are willing to turn up to work 30mins in advance and take a Covid test then surely the employers should provide a test? IF the primary concern is for the workers safety this seems to make perfect sense. — I like sushi
I find it ironic that this is the hill mostly conservative people want to die on when it comes to corporate power. — Xtrix
What kind of a choice is that? And "allows"? Rights and "allowed" don't reconcile. Yours then nonsense dressed up in language you neither care about nor respect.My point remains with allowing adults to make a choice or not. — I like sushi
I find it ironic that this is the hill mostly conservative people want to die on when it comes to corporate power. — Xtrix
...provided the employees pay for it themselves. — Xtrix
Either way, a test would resolve the issue and as the vaccine isn’t infallible why not just test everyone every day if the concern is so great. — I like sushi
Aug 23 (Reuters) - U.S. energy companies are moving to require that employees receive COVID-19 vaccinations as infection rates rise across the United States and health surveys show that energy workers remain among those most reluctant to get inoculations.
Calls to require vaccinations for employees working at close quarters in oilfield and refinery operations came as the U.S. Food and Drug Administration fully approved the Pfizer-BioNTech shot. — Reuters
What kind of a choice is that? — tim wood
"these companies actually exercise their power for legitimate, medically and scientifically sound reasons" - are you really that naive? — Isaac
It's got nothing to do with public health, it's to do with getting workers back to their job (being exploited for profit) as quickly as possible. — Isaac
I don't think a single person involved in this thread would, under normal circumstances, assume corporations act for the public good. — Isaac
we know better than to see academia as anything other than just another capitalist industry. — Isaac
I don't think a single person involved in this thread would, under normal circumstances, assume corporations act for the public good. — Isaac
All these questions are perspectival, because we're talking about trust, not facts. — Isaac
It's as sound as banning smoking from the workplace. That's legitimate. — Xtrix
the issue is, for you, is that you don't trust the enterprise of science. — Xtrix
when the evidence is overwhelming, and there's vast consensus, and one persists in taking the "skeptical" position nonetheless, we have to start questioning the motives — Xtrix
The issue, at heart, is belief and truth. Or to put it more accurately: epistemic responsibility. — Xtrix
I suppose, in capitalism, supply and demand type mechanisms + profit-maximization drive what corporations do. As noted somewhere, GlaxoSmithKline got busted and paid substantially. — jorndoe
maybe government-run research + production would do? Just established universities? Well, no, we still get into Us-versus-Them narratives, or at least that's what it seems like. (Even though "They" aren't quite Kafkaesque, ghostly entities.) — jorndoe
How many (and what sort of) offenses to render blanket distrust/dismantling and what would a realistic solution look like anyway? — jorndoe
As to the ethical dimension, a project to cultivate and nurture moral awareness? — jorndoe
It's as sound as banning smoking from the workplace. That's legitimate.
— Xtrix
Not in the least. The aim of the smoking ban was to prevent illness from passive smoking, there was only one way to do that (cut down on smoke). Hence the ban. — Isaac
If the aim here is to reduce covid infection there are several ways that can be done - regular testing, distance working, hygiene practices, antibody tests for natural immunity...
They've chosen vaccination. — Isaac
The one option that aligns with the agenda of the most powerful industry in the world. There's an absolute need to mandate something. There's no reason at all why that something has to be the product of a private corporation. — Isaac
the issue is, for you, is that you don't trust the enterprise of science.
— Xtrix
Well then I would have chosen an extremely self-defeating career path wouldn't I?
No, I have no problem with the enterprise of science. I don't agree that it's conducted by vote, that's all. — Isaac
Just hypothetically imagine that corporations did indeed have academic establishments under their thrall, how would overwhelming evidence within those establishments be evidence of anything except the corporate agenda? — Isaac
Not in the least. The aim of the smoking ban was to prevent illness from passive smoking, there was only one way to do that (cut down on smoke). Hence the ban. — Isaac
even if they exclusively chose vaccinations -- it's still legitimate — Xtrix
No, the overwhelming evidence is available for all of us to see and learn about — Xtrix
But in pursuit of smoking cessation, public health workers have to use whatever persuasive levers are available -- and passive smoke has become a pretty good lever. I suspect that very light exposure to passive smoke is probably a pretty small risk, even if people hate the smell. Especially, when you consider all the other indoor / outdoor polluting chemicals people are exposed to. — Bitter Crank
Tests would lead to workers having to go home too frequently and so production would drop — Isaac
The test takes 15-30 mins. I stated that if employees were willing to show up early and take the test before work then it would be a way around the issue for those who feel that taking the vaccine isn't in their best interest. — I like sushi
I'm still perplexed about the distinction between someone not wishing to take the vaccine and someone with religious reasons for not taking the vaccine. If we're applying reason and rationality in this case how do we allow one rule for religious persons and another for non-religious persons. — I like sushi
It's not by vote. It's by overwhelming evidence. — Xtrix
If you start down this line of argument, without any evidence for it presented, then you can justify anything -- climate denial, creationism, holocaust denial, a flat earth...anything. — Xtrix
Otherwise, your argument is just hot air. — Isaac
if you cannot understand what people tell you on this thread about the dangers of paranoia, then you will most certainly lose your mind. — Olivier5
Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.