It was on a different topic. — Olivier5
You becoming clinically insane is one topic which I won't touch anymore as it is personal. — Olivier5
the question I am asking now is: Who profits or hopes to profit from vaccine hesitancy, and are they behind some of the misinformation currently being spread about vaccines? — Olivier5
Not frantically, no. It's just a question I am playing with. Qui bono? — Olivier5
You've already made up your mind that it's impossible for anyone to be vaccine hesitant as a result of having intelligently weighed the evidence and just reaching a different conclusion to you. — Isaac
It seems like such a disingenuous enquiry. — Isaac
even if they exclusively chose vaccinations -- it's still legitimate
— Xtrix
Just a repeat of the original claim. No counter argument, no contrary evidence, nothing. You claim it's legitimate, I give reasons why it's not, you just repeat that it's legitimate. Why? Well, because you said so. What more reason could possibly be required than that, eh? — Isaac
I raise the idea that evidence is not overwhelming but appears so because of a bias in study design, funding, media reporting and government influence - all backed up previously with actual cited evidence — Isaac
It's not by vote. It's by overwhelming evidence.
— Xtrix
That's the same thing. — Isaac
Eight studies concluding one thing, two studies concluding another. All ten studies meeting the minimum threshold for acceptable science.
My claim is that all ten are equally legitimate because they've all met the threshold for acceptable science.
Your claim is that the two are unacceptable because fewer people support them. A popularity contest. — Isaac
My 'line' is...
1. I can support my view with citations from bone fide experts in the appropriate field who have no discoverable conflict of interest or evidence of previous bias. — Isaac
Now prove your point by doing the same for the view that climate change isn't real, or that the earth was made by God 6000 years ago, or that the holocaust didn't happen, or that the earth is flat... — Isaac
If my view is just like those others, you should be able to prove it. — Isaac
No, if you continue reading I give plenty of reasons why. — Xtrix
I see no cited evidence. Whatever you've posted before, I have no idea. — Xtrix
the overwhelming evidence that determines what to do, not votes or popularity contests. — Xtrix
They all claim exactly what you're claiming. They also cite "bone fide experts," etc. — Xtrix
I've seen no evidence so far to suggest that vaccines aren't safe or effective, and I believe you even conceded that beforehand. So once again, are you arguing against this or not? Because if you're not, then your stance about vaccine mandates are completely absurd -- and it was precisely this that was being discussed when you once again interjected. — Xtrix
You for instance think that the risk you are taking by not being vaccinated is quite small -- perhaps you don't mix up with others a lot; perhaps you are in good health and not overweight -- and that giving money to pharmaceuticals is a much larger risk. You would rather catch COVID and get sick for a week than use the protection of a vaccine, because you see the latter involving the risk of profiting an evil pharmaceutical company.
I wouldn't call it rational, but it's not totally stupid either. You just hate big pharma enough for it to tip the risk calculation. — Olivier5
I see no cited evidence. Whatever you've posted before, I have no idea.
— Xtrix
Then follow the conversation. I'm not going to conduct six different conversations all saying the same thing to six different people. — Isaac
Evidence, to me, is a stack of studies with statistically significant correlations between variables. — Isaac
This idea you have that overwhelming evidence just speaks to us somehow, is nonsense. — Isaac
They all claim exactly what you're claiming. They also cite "bone fide experts," etc.
— Xtrix
They absolutely do not, hence my request that you back up this assertion with evidence. Your consistent failure to do so just incriminates you further. Cite the bone fide expert with no history of bias or discoverable conflict of interest who claims the holocaust never happened or that the earth is flat. If you can't cite one then you're clearly just making this up. — Isaac
Things are safe enough, effective enough, depending on that which they are pitted against. — Isaac
The vaccines are safe and effective, as has been demonstrated over and over again. That’s science. That’s mathematics. — Xtrix
Safe, effective, and dangerous.
Very sensible, as always. — Xtrix
The question remains of how safe is safe enough to warrant mandatory vaccination. It is vanishingly unlikely that there will be absolutely no risk of harm from any biomedical intervention, and the disease itself has dramatically different risk profiles in different groups of the population. In an ideal world, the vaccine would be proven to be 100% safe. But there will likely be some risk remaining. Any mandatory vaccination programme would therefore need to make a value judgement about what level of safety and what level of certainty are safe and certain enough. Of course, it would need to be very high, but a 0% risk option is very unlikely. — Professor Julian Savulescu in the BMJ
The science is pretty unanimous about the fact that for healthy, young people below 35, the chance of getting seriously ill from a covid infection is much smaller than the chance of experiencing serious adverse effects from a vaccination. — Tzeentch
If vaccine safety and efficacy meant that vaccines weren't dangerous, then I should think everyone would be on board with them. But I am not hearing anyone claim vaccines aren't dangerous. — Yohan
No Yohan is spot on. It's exactly the question the medical ethicists are asking. — Isaac
It is vanishingly unlikely that there will be absolutely no risk of harm from any biomedical intervention — Professor Julian Savulescu in the BMJ
With limited exceptions involving religious objectors, judges have overwhelmingly upheld orders in numerous states that require health workers, public employees, state university students and government contractors to be fully vaccinated against Covid-19 as a condition of employment. These rulings have allowed states to fire workers who refuse immunization.
The universe was created. Who says this didn't happen 6000 years ago? If they think this is what happened... — MikeBlender
Genuine medical progress, a great scientific achievement, if it pans out. — jorndoe
you don't think breast cancer prevention is cool...? :brow: How odd. It'd be a great accomplishment, Nobel material. Know/knew anyone with breast cancer? — jorndoe
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