Your own emotions are the the most important indicators you have that your ways of coping that used to work are starting to fail you. — Joshs

I disagree but I’m willing to listen to whatever arguments lead you to this conclusion in the first place.

Are you telling me everything you’ve ever done made perfect sense to you and you never thought it was the wrong or sub optimal choice? I say liar because humans do NOT always, or perhaps even mainly, act in a rational nor logical manner.

Some simple examples: Buying a lottery ticket, drug addict, hunger, poverty or love/sex.

humans do NOT always, or perhaps even mainly, act in a rational nor logical manner. — I like sushi

I agree but I don’t think that it necessarily follows from this that I’m wrong when I claim that people believe they are doing what is best when they select some solution to their problems. In other words they think that it makes sense. Otherwise it’s hard to believe that they would voluntarily choose to do what seems inferior and absurd.

Humans are extraordinarily absurd beings. We have a kind of self-destructive streak. I actually think it is precisely this that allows us to step beyond out own perceived limitations and achieve what would previously been seen as ‘impossible’.

Humans are extraordinarily absurd beings. — I like sushi

At least we agree on one thing. Humans are indeed extraordinarily absurd beings.

Is anyone else reading @Average's replies reminded of Modbot?

Or Eliza?

(@Tom Storm pointed this out).

Yep.

Would you mind clarifying what you mean? Some elaboration would be greatly appreciated. — Average

I would prefer an objective approach but individual approaches could still be valuable. — Average

I’m asking how we can know that our confidence in our own decisions is justified or not. — Average

Would you mind identifying precisely where I was unclear And what kind of examples would be helpful? — Average

How did you come to this conclusion? — Average

How do you know that the questions I am asking have no answer? — Average

I highly doubt that ignoring the problem is the solution — Average

Who is Maria? — Average

The problem is that very often what we think is best ends up producing catastrophic consequences — Average

Why mild confidence? Why not complete confidence or no confidence? — Average

Repeating terms used in the previous text. Lack of general knowledge. Pat statements that could fit in anywhere. Inverting statements to construct replies. Looks like pattern recognition software.

Repeating terms used in the previous text. Lack of general knowledge. Pat statements that could fit in anywhere. Inverting statements to construct replies. Looks like pattern recognition software. — Banno

Lol

Prove yourself brave, truthful and unselfish, and someday you will be a real boy, Pinocchio. :joke:

Prove yourself brave, truthful and unselfish, and someday you will be a real boy, Pinocchio. — Tom Storm

I don’t want to be a real boy

I'm going to opt out of this. If it goes somewhere I might drop in again. Cheers. — Tom Storm

I was under the impression that you lost interest in this conversation Tom.

When we realize it is actually our senses that make our choices. Rather, prevent us from using true logic. Of course, you see a degraded piece of wood, smell an expired glass of milk, feel a mushy piece of fruit in the supermarket, hear a large animal nearby, you avoid these things. That's a good decision more often than not. No argument there. And yet.. our senses are so volatile, easily influenced or afflicted, led astray as it were.

These words you use, beneficial and counterproductive, are so ambiguous. One can assume you mean toward yourself the observer, but why? What may immediately benefit you in the fashion you were expecting out of an action or experience could very well spell the opposite in a greater and more permanent sense.

If you seek certainty, philosophy is not for you. Then again neither is life for that matter. Science, mathematics, and computing sounds more up your alley. These things are certain. At least.. until you reach that one equation, singularity, newer theory, or in some cases loss of electricity.

These words you use, beneficial and counterproductive, are so ambiguous. — Outlander

I apologize if there is some ambiguity imbedded in my questions but this is the first time I’ve ever started a discussion. Hopefully you can overlook my lack of experience.

Science, mathematics, and computing sounds more up your alley. — Outlander

I’m not sure that there is this kind of clear demarcation between these subjects and philosophy. Maybe I’m wrong but I don’t think so.

What is a choice?

Perhaps the truth lies between someone saying "This is not what I wanted to do but I had to do it" and "This is not what I had to do but I wanted to do it." However, even in cases where one wants to act in a certain way, one carefully studies the pros and cons and, intriguingly, when that's done, the best alternative is, all things considered, a diktat of logic. So, yeah, at worst, no choice and at best, only an illusion of choice.

Off-topic. :grin:

What is a choice? — TheMadFool

I think what I mean by a choice is a decision. Like someone deciding to do something or to believe something. The concept of choice or the notion of a decision seems to revolve around some sort of action. So basically what it boils down to is what we end up doing. So what I’m asking is how do we know that what we do makes sense.

So, yeah, at worst, no choice and at best, only an illusion of choice. — TheMadFool

I couldn’t care less about the free will debate. Whether or not we have choice isn’t what I’m interested in. I’m interested in our behavior.

I think what I mean by a choice is a decision. Like someone deciding to do something or to believe something. The concept of choice or the notion of a decision seems to revolve around some sort of action. So basically what it boils down to is what we end up doing. So what I’m asking is how do we know that what we do makes sense. — Average

The word "decide" has two important meanings:

1. Choose
2. Judge

Thus when we decide we choose wisely.

I couldn’t care less about the free will debate. Whether or not we have choice isn’t what I’m interested in. I’m interested in our behavior. — Average

To each his own. Different strokes for different folks. :up:

Thus when we decide we choose wisely. — TheMadFool

I think the idea that when we decide we choose wisely is absurd. Every decision ever made could then be categorized as a wise decision but we know that this isn’t the case. I’m not sure what you’re trying to communicate but if I’m misinterpreting your conclusion please provide me with a little bit of elaboration and clarification.

I think the idea that when we decide we choose wisely is absurd. Every decision ever made could then be categorized as a wise decision but we know that this isn’t the case. I’m not sure what you’re trying to communicate but if I’m misinterpreting you conclusion please provide me with a little bit of elaboration and clarification. — Average

The ideal (decision) is quite separate from the actual (decision). You'll find bad decisions call this gap home. Good decisions (wise choices) are what we're gunning for, but sometimes we fail and take a bad decision.

Good decisions (wise choices) are what we're gunning for, but sometimes we fail and take a bad decision. — TheMadFool

I’m glad we agree on this

I’m glad we agree on this — Average

:up: Same here!

Kind of like 98.6 fahrenheit is just an average of many bodies. — Joshs

It's not even that. I think there's a Radiolab episode about it... ADDED: Well, I mean, yes it is quite specifically "an average of many bodies", but it isn't and never was the "average normal human temperature" or something.

I don’t think that it necessarily follows from this that I’m wrong when I claim that people believe they are doing what is best when they select some solution to their problems. In other words they think that it makes sense. Otherwise it’s hard to believe that they would voluntarily choose to do what seems inferior and absurd. — Average

Actually there's plenty of reason to think they wouldn't bother to find out what's best. Google "herbert simon satisficing". Perfect is the enemy of good.

At first I thought you were stuck on the problem of the criterion, which most people prefer to ignore as circular nonsense, but in several posts, you seem to demand something like knowledge of the future in order to make a decision. I'll grant you, sometimes people pull in their horns too readily in the name of human fallibility, but some standards or expectations are still obviously unreachable. This for instance:

I don’t think that it would make sense to try something even if you feel fairly certain that it will succeed. What we need is some sort of proof or evidence that guarantees that we are making decisions that make sense. — Average

Proof? Guarantees? Ambition is commendable, but are you serious?

Would you mind clarifying what you mean? Some elaboration would be greatly appreciated.
— Average

I would prefer an objective approach but individual approaches could still be valuable.
— Average

I’m asking how we can know that our confidence in our own decisions is justified or not.
— Average

Would you mind identifying precisely where I was unclear And what kind of examples would be helpful?
— Average

How did you come to this conclusion?
— Average

How do you know that the questions I am asking have no answer?
— Average

I highly doubt that ignoring the problem is the solution
— Average

Who is Maria?
— Average

The problem is that very often what we think is best ends up producing catastrophic consequences
— Average

Why mild confidence? Why not complete confidence or no confidence?
— Average



Repeating terms used in the previous text. Lack of general knowledge. Pat statements that could fit in anywhere. Inverting statements to construct replies. Looks like pattern recognition software. — Banno

Socrates spoke like that (Dialectical Method). :chin: Hmmmmm...

At first I thought you were stuck on the problem of the criterion, which most people prefer to ignore as circular nonsense, but in several posts, you seem to demand something like knowledge of the future in order to make a decision. — Srap Tasmaner

I think that what I would prefer to oracular insight is knowledge of the present. What I mean is that for instance throughout history military methods have been employed without an accurate understanding of the enemy, the terrain, the climate or the actual capabilities of one’s own forces among other variables. This kind of ignorance leads to destruction.

Proof? Guarantees? Ambition is commendable, but are you serious? — Srap Tasmaner

I am serious

What may immediately benefit you in the fashion you were expecting out of an action or experience could very well spell the opposite in a greater and more permanent sense. — Outlander

Can you think of an example where this would be the case? I think that it might enable me to understand your ideas.