Stoicism: It can't be mastered. It can't be done. It can't be practiced. — god must be atheist

It definitely rubs our capitalistic values forged in rugged individualism the wrong way. We're not trained for well-being, so we need to train ourselves.

It definitely rubs our capitalistic values forged in rugged individualism the wrong way. We're not trained for well-being, so we need to train ourselves. — praxis

This is true. But I venture to say that to train someone in capitalistic, consumer-oriented, individualist, greedy, egotist, narcissistic behaviour takes five minutes, and it is totally successful. Training in the Stoic way takes a lifetime and you never get quite there.

My conclusion is that we are not only trained, but inclined behaving in non-Stoic ways. Very strongly, from birth. This is the real human nature. And leopards can't lose their spots. Zebras can't lose their stripes. Man can't lose his nature. To force him to do so, whether it's due to outer coercion or inner urge, will encounter insurmountable difficulties, and will never succeed. You can't make a lion vegetarian and you can't train a giraffe to solve partial differential equations. You therefore are occupied to make humans Stoic, and it's a good and noble occupation, and fun in a way, and makes you perhaps feel superior to your peers, but it is never successful.

That said, my previous post: I am not trying to convince anyone that they should stop trying to live Stoically. Go ahead, this is not a crime, sin, or socially unacceptable behaviour. Much like some people go deep-sea diving, or mountain climbing, or competing in the Olympics in the event of uneven parallel bars. None of those are natural, either, but are fun and worthwhile, much like Stoicism.

This is the real human nature. — god must be atheist

We are a social species and have the capacity of reason. Living in accordance with that nature is what stoicism is all about. We aren’t leopards, zebras, lions or giraffes.

This is true. But I venture to say that to train someone in capitalistic, consumer-oriented, individualist, greedy, egotist, narcissistic behaviour takes five minutes, and it is totally successful. — god must be atheist

Interesting comment. Are you sure? I suspect a lot of people are immune to the mindset too.

I included in my reasoning that a lot more people are wishing to immigrate to the United States than wishing to emigrate from there.

There are other indicators as well.

The upshot is that we, as a species, acquired some traits that were evolutionarily advantageous, that are now instinctual, and are easier to make people develop and acclimatize to them than against them.

Some of these are: greed, hunger for power, sexual promiscuity. Some "nice" characteristics: caring for the sick, the very young, and the very old; caring and supporting one's own nuclear family; healing; upholding social structure due to personal insight, not merely due to fear of the law or of God; morals and not killing unless it's absolutely necessary.

Stoicism does not jive with the "ugly" features of the human personal psychological make-up. Its basic aims are against the grain of most basic survival instincts / tactics. This makes Stoicism nice, noble and admirable, and at the same time a lifetime struggle to grow in it, never achieving the ideal Stoic lifestyle fully.

No leopard, lion or giraffe can be jealous, greedy, vengeful, and argumentative. We, humans, have those traits. I put to you that our "negative" (in the Stoic sense) human traits have developed for a reason; a good reason; and they are here to stay with us, you can't edit it out of humans with reason and social cohesion.

Even if some of the negative (as well as the positive) human traits have no longer value in surviving, they will only disappear by natural selection if they become counter-survival behaviour.

Of course to accept the above, one needs to accept evolution as the shaper of species. If one is a theist, a creationist, then what I said can be totally and easily disregarded.

No leopard, lion or giraffe can be jealous, greedy, vengeful, and argumentative. — god must be atheist

Curious that you regard argument negatively.

I put to you that our "negative" (in the Stoic sense) human traits have developed for a reason; a good reason; and they are here to stay with us, you can't edit it out of humans with reason and social cohesion. — god must be atheist

I put to you that our "positive" (in the Stoic sense) human traits have developed for a reason; a good reason; and they are here to stay with us, you can't edit it out of humans with reason and social cohesion.

Both negative and positive human traits (in the Stoic sense) developed equally for they aided survival. I can not argue against that.

I did not say, btw, "argument"; I said "argumentative". Big difference. You committed a Strawman fallacy by altering what I said and defeating the argument I never said. This also shows a lack of sufficient understanding of the language on your part. If you did not make a mistake, then it's intentional on your part, and I resent your insult to my intelligence by your thinking that I would never catch you on your trap.

Please stay to the course of the English language in further replies and please avoid committing fallacious reasoning.

Argumentative

• Given to expressing divergent or opposite views.
• Using or characterized by systematic reasoning.

Doesn't sound so very terrible to me. Perhaps all the experience of losing arguments has imprinted a negative impression.

I resent your insult to my intelligence by your thinking that I would never catch you on your trap. — god must be atheist

Perhaps all the experience of losing arguments has imprinted a negative impression. — praxis

I think I might love you two. I mean, if you are going to do it, that is how it is done. It's almost Churchillian, and so much better than my knuckle-dragging F bombs. Gentlepeople, I aspire to this!

It seems to me that your problem is about organization and productivity, not necessarily about ideology. As a Stoic, one is supposed to get things done, not wonder and wallow.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Getting_Things_Done

Probably best to start with Ready for anything, because this book is written more in bite size.

It seems to me that your problem is about organization and productivity, not necessarily about ideology. As a Stoic, one is supposed to get things done, not wonder and wallow. — baker

What's wrong with wondering and wallowing?

What's wrong with wondering and wallowing? — Shawn

Do you like to wonder and wallow?

OK. I'm not sure this provides evidence for your claim but I get what you are saying. My own experience is many people I know turn down money or opportunities unless it meets their values. They could all be far richer than they are but live for values not for moolah. I've tended to think that restless men (particularly) who have fragile self-esteem chase after two things - money and gym membership.

:100: When I wore what I perceived as a white hat, I was subsidized by my partners. When I wore what I perceived as a black hat, the money came rolling in. But when I could not sleep at night, I left. If I could upload a picture of my current hat, I would. It's 10X tejon; it was once off-white; but it's no longer pretty. :blush:

I've tended to think that restless men (particularly) who have fragile self-esteem chase after two things - money and gym membership. — Tom Storm

:sweat:

Do you like to wonder and wallow? — baker

Yesh, I wallow a lot.

I've tended to think that restless men (particularly) who have fragile self-esteem chase after two things - money and gym membership. — Tom Storm

I’ve had a gym membership and stayed fit as a lifestyle for my entire adult life, but I’ve never been a money chaser. Low self-esteem though so your mold halfway fits.

I hear you, Cobber. (Australian term of affection)

Argumentative

Given to expressing divergent or opposite views.
Using or characterized by systematic reasoning. — praxis

Again, you cherry-picked the definition out of the complete definitions of the two. You claim there is hardly any if any difference between "argument" and "argumentative", and now again you claim victory on false grounds.

You resort to arguing against reality to prove your point. A consensus has been established, for the meanings of "argumentative" and "argument" and you fight that consensus because you are grasping for straws in you futile attmepts to demonstrate why you are right.

Perhaps all the experience of losing arguments has imprinted a negative impression. — praxis

The experiences of losing arguments, yes, due to the oppositions' inability to understand reasoned arguments, due to their frequent applications of false logic, and due to their horribly tenacious insistence on wrong conclusions. In other words, I dislike argumentative people who make no sense, and whose very limited cognitive ability prevents them from understanding a line of proper logical reasoning.

Because they are impervious to logic and reason, in service of their false beliefs, I get frustrated with their inability to see reason, which they could not recognize when presented to them.

In other words precisely the type of people like you, Praxis.

Praxis, you have a special ability to get under the skin of people whom you don't like, and you are very adept at making false accusations, and insinuations that have no grounds, yet you make them sound convincing. You are much better at these two than I could ever dream to be. Congratulations, you are an excellent, albeit dumb and ignorant, furthermore stupid and inconsequential, agent provocateur, whose only strength on a philosophy forum such as this is his ability to float falsely appearing as a peer because of his ability to insult people.

I've tended to think that restless men (particularly) who have fragile self-esteem chase after two things - money and gym membership. — Tom Storm

Kudos to you for recognizing fragile self-esteem in men, and more bravos for observing the positive correlation.

I can't tell what man has fragile self-esteem, and which man does not, by observation. I'd say a person with fragile self-esteem displays behaviour that reflects feelings of inferiority. Such behaviour to me would comprise weeping a lot, timidity, fear of acquiring new skills (for fear of failure), etc. Working out at a gym and making lots of dough somehow does not strike me as displays of low self-esteem.

Then again I realize that there is a spectral nature to low-self esteem, and that I recognize it in only those who have a large dose of it. Your radar may be better tuned.

Then again, by "restless" you may mean "prone to promiscuity".

In this sense, yes, you are supporting my point. (Thank you very much for that, I hardly ever have got moral support by others on this forum. Quite refreshing... exhilarating, truly.) Those with good looks and with money get more attention of the opposite sex. And why should they not? Good looks mean good genes and high level of testosterone in men, and good money means an ability to provide and protect.

You're right on.

The only part I don't get is why they need a fragile self-esteem for all this. I hardly believe Pres. Kennedy or Mick Jagger had low self-esteem. I can't vouch for their going to the gym, but the consensus is that they were both handsome and with money.

Then again, by "restless" you may mean "prone to promiscuity". — god must be atheist

By restless I meant... restless :smile: - needing to be constantly on the move, and active in order to manage anxiety. Sitting still is hard for some men as it might lead to introspection.

Throwing yourself into making money and working out are often about deliberate transformation - to project a view of yourself as powerful and desirable when you feel anything but. We used to call it compensation.

Kinda funny but, like your short story in the competition, fiction doesn’t seem to be your strong suit. At least I made it past the first couple of paragraphs in this latest drama. :razz:

I just believe that Stoicism encourages one to desire a state of apathy.

The state of being apathetic is wallowsome and quite perfunctory. Nothing seems to transpire or come to realization when being apathetic. That's why it doesn't cause me any joy or happiness or pleasure to be apathetic. Sometimes I would prefer to read a book or a magazine rather than just apathetically wait until I'm ready to do so, whenever or whatever that means. — Shawn

If you had taken time/effort to read or understand previous explanations, then you might begin to realise that your belief (I bolded) about Stoicism is incorrect.
Perhaps you do realise it.
Perhaps you 'just desire' yet another discussion about your negative view or experience of the theory/practice of 'Stoicism' which you seem to want to blame for your own state of 'apathy'.

You fail to respond adequately to any questions, explanations or links offered, such as the meaning and causes of 'Apathy'.
So, yes, I would agree that you are 'apathetic' - in the sense of not following through. Ironically, there seems to be a determination to keep on 'wallowing like a pig'. What that means and when you started to identify as a pig - well, that is known to you. You are self-aware.

If that state doesn't bring you 'joy, happiness or pleasure', then what can be done about it, if you even want to or have the capability ?
What makes you think you have to wait 'apathetically' until you are ready to read a book, etc ?
That's not what 'Stoicism' is about, and I think you know that.

'Whenever or whatever that means' - you asked the question, what's your answer. Or will your response be yet another frustrating and confused jumble of words ? We both know you can do better than that, even if you feel more wallowsome just playing around...

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Stoicism: It can't be mastered. It can't be done. It can't be practiced.
— god must be atheist

It definitely rubs our capitalistic values forged in rugged individualism the wrong way. We're not trained for well-being, so we need to train ourselves. — praxis

It's not about 'mastering Stoicism' but yourself - thoughts, emotions and behaviour.
@praxis is right. It's about 'training'; some need guides or exercises for wellbeing.

See previous discussion, ending with:

I don't see Stoicism as being a perfect system of philosophy. Rather it gives guidelines and exercises in thought and considered, careful action.
— Amity

I think the same. It's a wise way of living. — Ciceronianus

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Stoic Week ended yesterday.
Sunday: Building a Stoic Toolkit.

For when you might 'fall off the Stoic horse', if you even got on...
Even if we feel calm or resilient most of the time, strong responses or emotions can take over which might be less than helpful.
This can happen when we are physically or mentally under the weather: tired, in pain, feeling low.

Generally, this is where self-awareness comes in. We need to 'read' ourselves.
Then, work out where we have particular challenges e.g. Anxiety and then pick out particular phrases or quotes we find helpful. In the moment. Perspective and priority.

The Morning Quote:
“Today I escaped from anxiety. Or no, I discarded it, because it was within me, in my own perception – not outside”

Marcus Aurelius Meditations 9:13 — Stoic Week 2021

Why would we even want to control ourselves, our emotions ?
Some don't.
Is it worth making changes in our daily routines ? Perhaps not. It depends on what we are aiming for.

The Evening Quote:
“Our answer must consist, not in talk and meditation, but in right action and in right conduct. Life ultimately means taking the responsibility to find the right answer to its problems and to fulfil the tasks which it constantly sets for each individual.”

Viktor Frankl: Man’s Search for Meaning

Viktor is reminding us here that we are not achieving anything if we spend a great deal of time and effort in studying Stoicism or other forms of self-improvement, without changing the way we behave. — Stoic Week 2021

Other tools in the kit are the keeping of a journal. Thinking of the day ahead, what we want to achieve or which emotion might need attention...being careful in thoughts, assumptions and action...reflecting on how things went...for you and others.

Personally, I don't do this. I'm lazy. However, I seem to have absorbed some of the key quotes, already mentioned of Epictetus and Marcus. They are in my mind, especially when relating to others.
[ Stoic Week, Wednesday...the Circles of Care...]

Leaving it now.
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Almost...
A note on Viktor Frankl, as quoted above:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Frankl

Viktor Emil Frankl (26 March 1905 – 2 September 1997) was an Austrian neurologist, psychiatrist, philosopher, author, and Holocaust survivor...

Frankl identified three main ways of realizing meaning in life: by making a difference in the world, by having particular experiences, or by adopting particular attitudes.

The primary techniques offered by logotherapy and existential analysis are:

Paradoxical intention: clients learn to overcome obsessions or anxieties by self-distancing and humorous exaggeration.
Dereflection: drawing the client's attention away from their symptoms, as hyper-reflection can lead to inaction.[23]
Socratic dialogue and attitude modification: asking questions designed to help a client find and pursue self-defined meaning in their life.[24]
— Wiki: Viktor Frankl

Kinda funny but, like your short story in the competition, fiction doesn’t seem to be your strong suit. At least I made it past the first couple of paragraphs in this latest drama — praxis

You think continuing this provocation is helpful or wise ?

Futility is a great utility in ultimate beliefs. — god must be atheist

The belief in it also serves to justify inaction, which can be comforting.

But I venture to say that to train someone in capitalistic, consumer-oriented, individualist, greedy, egotist, narcissistic behaviour takes five minutes, and it is totally successful. — god must be atheist

And so, by all means be capitalistic, consumer-oriented, greedy, egotistic and narcissistic, but in any case don't try to be otherwise. It can't be done!

I’ve had a gym membership and stayed fit as a lifestyle for my entire adult life, but I’ve never been a money chaser.


Low self-esteem though so your mold halfway fits. — praxis

Pffft.

Yesh, I wallow a lot. — Shawn

That's not Stoic, not Stoic at all.

Throwing yourself into making money and working out are often about deliberate transformation - to project a view of yourself as powerful and desirable when you feel anything but. We used to call it compensation. — Tom Storm

Nah. I see displays of wealth and health as a matter of setting boundaries and putting up signs -- "Don't even think of trying to fuck with me, because I will destroy you! You can see that I have the power to destroy you!"