This is actually what is happening and has happened in many countries. The pandemic has put the ruling administrations in a tough spot and if the emergency laws aren't up to it (as usual), it causes this kind of friction where governments have to back down because of legal reasons. — ssu

It's not only that. Some administrations really, genuinely don't care about the people, and they make that clear. Some administrations expect that the citizens need to earn the favor the government.

People would probably be willing to put up with quite a bit of legally grey things that the government does or wants to do, as long as people would have a sense that the government can be trusted and that it cares about people.
But once the government behaves like a business owner, treating citizens as its employees, that trust is gone, and trust substitutes must be put in place (such as a law for everything the government does) .

Still don't understand how he can be allowed to participate when he won't observe the house rules. — Wayfarer

He just is allowed such.

Could Trump walk up to the outer gate of the White House, and walk through, without anyone stopping him? He probably could.
Could he walk through the door of the White House without anyone stopping him? He probably could.
Could he walk into the Oval Office and sit down into the president's chair, without anyone stopping him? He probably could.

Sure, some people would probably be outraged. But would anyone actually, physically stop him from doing any of those things?

Yeah, not interested. You can find plenty on the internet. — Benkei

*sigh*
You complain about the distribution of information being targeted nowadays. I point out that this is actually business as usual.

So what gives? In response to what will you tell me "I told you so"?

We've got /.../ people believing the worst things without any ability to even listen to opposing views.
— Benkei
Do you know of any time in human history when this was not the case?

I don't. Sure, the superficial methods change over time, as technology changes, but the underlying principles are the same. Pick any actual time in human history, any actual year and place, and research whether people in that year and place had free access to all information.

Was there ever a time when the distribution of information was not in one way or another targeted? — baker

Sure, some people would probably be outraged. But would anyone actually, physically stop him from doing any of those things? — baker

Yeah, they obviously cannot think of simply locking the door in the White House.

Locked doors do stop people, you know.

So he tells them to unlock the door and let him in.

And nobody comes. Will he have a hunger strike there? Or what.

Are you so sure they wouldn't let him in?

There have been high politicians who simply walked out of prison, literally, no guard stopped them. They were sentenced to jail, and they walked out of prison, long before serving their sentence. Some of the media were outraged, warrants issued, but on the ground level, nothing happened.

I dread to name names, but I know that this can happen. Some people simply have such power.

All depends actually of what the reasons are for his visit. If the idea is that he could walk into the Oval Office and resume office of the President, the physical act of trying to enter the White House would be extremely funny. Many would question if he now had gone of his rocker.

Yeah, I bet the present administration would then humiliate him by not letting him in. But he sure would create a media frenzy with that stunt. If he would get them their.

Some people simply have such power. — baker

Well, one person like that was Napoleon. But Trump isn't actually a Napoleon.

The Voter-Fraud Hunt in Texas Just Blew Up in Republicans’ Faces (Oct 21, 2021)

It’s my belief that they were trying to get cases of Democrats doing voter fraud. And that just wasn’t the case. — Eric Frank

Was he looking for a celebrity or a political group as a whole? I don’t know what he meant by bigger fish. — Eric Frank

Maybe a "Big Lie" type thing.

The Big Money Behind the Big Lie (Aug 9, 2021)

There are going to be a lot of exploded heads if Trump wins in 2024.

@Xtrix will have a psychotic break.

There are going to be a lot of exploded heads if Trump wins in 2024. — frank

I observed some time ago that if Trump were to run and actually win in 2024, then America will get the president it deserves. And then he and the monsters he attracts will eat those who voted for him. But he won't. He got by on fool-us-once, but not on twice. And he'll be too old. I await the news that he's collapsed from a stroke or died outright. As well, there are all of his crimes. Bad joss if he gets away with them.

https://youtu.be/ETlcns6lU6s

I await the news that he's collapsed from a stroke or died outright. — tim wood

I pray that doesn't happen. He'll then be a martyr and you know damn well it will have been a secret deep state doctor that slipped something into his Big Mac. Then his Brown Shirts will be in open revolt.

Bad joss if he gets away with them. — tim wood

I hope those in the executive know we are watching them. And I don't mean POTUS. Shit better happen and it better not be too late when it does. I'm as 'Murican as any one else and I want justice and I want it NOW!

Then there's that little matter of the stacked court.

What we need - needed - is a Judge Sirica. Others may need to look him up, but I'm pretty sure you don't.

I did need to look him up. :blush: But you are correct. In this day and age, he will suffer the likes of Tucker Carlson though. No one is above smearing if they don't tow the Trump line.

frank
I observed some time ago that if Trump were to run and actually win in 2024, then America will get the president it deserves. — tim wood

I observed some time ago that if Trump were to run and actually win in 2024, then America will get the president it deserves. And then he and the monsters he attracts will eat those who voted for him. But he won't. He got by on fool-us-once, but not on twice. And he'll be too old. I await the news that he's collapsed from a stroke or died outright. As well, there are all of his crimes. Bad joss if he gets away with them. — tim wood

The real issue is that the poison of aggressive populism has taken over one major party with the extremists in control. That actually isn't going to go away. And the other side is viewing this as an threat to the existence of the Republic. Neither the hatred of each other, described with the term "polarization", or "tribalism" and the vitriolic stances will go away. Polarization is the way forward, because moderation or consensus will be balked or seen as "surrender". You see, this isn't about Trump anymore (even if this thread is about the old man): it's the way how dysfunctional US politics has become. It's hostile, paranoid and full of hate and fear. That's the way forward. Democracy doesn't function in this kind of environment. It didn't function in the Weimar Republic either.

Few seem to remember how it was with the Clinton administration. That administration went from scandal to scandal and the GOP understood that they could dominate the political scene with attacking ferociously the Clintons and going with the scandals. We then had an impeachment, which worked as a rallying cry. And somehow when wife Clinton was nominated to be the presidential candidate, the Democrats had somehow forgotten what kind of red cloth she was for the Republicans. Now the Democrats have found the similar vein with Trump. We have had many impeachments. As people know, I do think Trump was a disaster, but the way the media paints Trump as an existential threat does remind very well how the GOP playbook went with the Clintons.

And it won't get better before it gets a lot worse. Elections are going to be the dumpster fires we have witnessed already. That's the real ugly truth.

As usual, real substance in your post. All of them an education and thank you always for that!

It seems to me, though, that you may miss the sheer size of the US and its history of having mostly two and only two major parties, third-party candidates only occasional spoilers. A metaphor, if you will: European parties seem to us to be relatively small and agile, like small sailboats in a regatta, close-hauled into the wind, watching the tell-tales and coming about as the wind shifts, or running with the wind, watching to avoid an accidental jibe - in any case with an aspect of active sport, albeit however serious.

But US parties more like supertankers, taking much time and space for even small changes in direction or speed. Nothing at all agile about them, or sporting. And thus it happens that some superficial changes, again, however serious, while they seem to become part of the party, are more parasitic in nature, and the body politic eventually sloughs them off, the body itself recovering its main health. And the hopeful sign is that the parasite, in this case right-wing and fundamentalist mania, cannot survive on its own. That is, either they will kill the Republican party and themselves in the process, or real Republicans, even those sheltering in the Democrat party, will be shed of them, and again, they'll die. Sense?

Edit: small point. There were no Clinton scandals worthy of note, but that their notability was manufactured by Republicans. Not to say he or she saints, but neither the devils as portrayed.

It seems to me, though, that you may miss the sheer size of the US and its history of having mostly two and only two major parties, third-party candidates only occasional spoilers. A metaphor, if you will: European parties seem to us to be relatively small and agile, like small sailboats in a regatta, close-hauled into the wind, watching the tell-tales and coming about as the wind shifts, or running with the wind, watching to avoid an accidental jibe - in any case with an aspect of active sport, albeit however serious. — tim wood

Ah, everything is happening because of the two-party system.

Actually, the two party situation and that one party can have it all, both the Presidency and the control of the both houses of the Congress, is the structural reason for the "poisoning" of US politics.

First of all, naturally when there are only two parties, coalition governments don't happen. This is one of the most fundamental reasons why the parties can be so estranged from each other: they don't have to be team players. A strong third party would change this. Multiparty politics can at times town down the vitriolic rhetoric as you cannot portray the other party as dangerous madmen and then make a coalition party with them. It's true that multiparty party system can be as bad as the US system, but usually they work a bit better.

Second, you basically have a centrist party and a right-wing party. The left has not been there for a long time in US politics. Some will think it's a blessing, others as the reason for all the problems. Nevermind the democratic socialists like Bernie and AOC, they are in the DNC only to gather the leftist youth vote in a country that never has experienced true leftist policies. In a similar manner "the religious right" is close the GOP, but hardly makes a dent in true politics like a real religious party would make. Now the American voter might notice how limited actually the options are, so it's crucial for both parties to portray the other party as these dangerous loonies who will destroy utterly everything if they get into power. It's to get the voter at least to pick the less worse option. I would emphasize that it's crucial for any democracy to work that all major political stances are represented, because otherwise this leads to voter alienation, which is harmful. When there is no party that many people can find to represent their views, things get ugly. Democracy doesn't work, it doesn't feel at all to work for you. So hell with it, is a typical answer then. That's how the poisoning spreads.

The third crucial thing for the biparty system to survive is that they have convinced that "primaries" are part of the democratic system. The idea that change can be done through changing the political party itself. Actually Donald Trump did breathe a lot of life to this as the old GOP elite did lose it's grip of the party (and basically made it leaderless, as Trump is an orator, not a leader). The DNC with it's superdelegates etc. has been able to handle the theater better with great actors like Bernie understanding their role and sticking to the script.

Finally, the fourth reason is that the two parties have successfully discouraged the American voter of thinking that he or she can really instantly change the political landscape. That this could actually be done quite quickly, if there would be the will. No, this isn't understood. What is thought is that third parties won't work, they will spoil the chances of the "reasonable" candidate, and that it's impossible to gather root support emerging in all of the states. I know this apathy. Finns thought the same way for a long time also, that no new parties can have the ability to emerge. That people will vote for the old parties...because they have voted for the old parties. Well, of course, suddenly there was the anti-intellect people's choice party, the True Finns, which even in it's political statement describes itself of being 'populist'.

So...we got that too. :roll:

There are going to be a lot of exploded heads if Trump wins in 2024. — frank

And some facepalms. :)

Barring a miracle, he'll almost certainly be back.

Barring a miracle, he'll almost certainly be back. — StreetlightX

Of course it is early, and we have (hopefully, finally) learned our lesson that you can never underestimate the stupidity of Americans (? is a traitor still an American?) but there are some signs of hope:



Then again, the media may just be doing their thing of ginning up a fight.

I remember on the playground when two antagonist really didn't want to fight but some fuck was always slithering around the perimeter, calling into question the bravery of either side, or starting the chant of "FIGHT, FIGHT, FIGHT". That's the U.S. media, including those surreptitious, conniving bastards in the MSM.

I don't think people care about Trump satellites like Flynn. Trump's the draw.

Also Biden is less than useless and is a and always has been a slightly longer detour to Trump anyway.

Trump's the draw. — StreetlightX

I don't follow him. How is he doing out there?

Also Biden is less than useless — StreetlightX

Everyone is less than useless. But some are still better than others. Biden is better than Trump. To the extent all politicians are dishonorable, cowards, and liars, Trump is the gold standard. And those who follow him are racist white nationalist fascists. The idea that "I just wanted to tip the apple cart" is long gone. Guilt by association is no fallacy.

Biden is better than Trump. — James Riley

I don't know why people like to say this like it means anything. Or even think it's true. Biden was the condition that enabled Trump to get to where he is, and surprise surprise, he's being that very same condition again. And Biden has done more long term damage to the States in his career than Trump has - although a second Trump term might even the odds. Except people act like Biden popped out of thin air a couple of years ago or something. Biden's a fucking monster, an absolute ruiner of lives. Trump just wears it on his sleeve like a brand.

I don't know why people like to say this like it means anything. — StreetlightX

They like to say it because it is true. It means something to Americans.

Or even think it's true. — StreetlightX

It is true.

Biden was the condition that enabled Trump to get to where he is, and surprise surprise, he's being that very same condition again. — StreetlightX

Biden, et al, were only the condition that enabled Trump to the extent they were magnanimous in victory. They should have hunted down and killed every last racist after the civil war and every last fascist after WWII. So, to the extent they failed to do that, you have a point. But the arc of history bends toward justice, slowly, notwithstanding liberal magnanimity. It's something I guess we don't want to give up.

And Biden has done more long term damage to the States in his career than Trump has. — StreetlightX

No, he has not. The only person who ever did more long term damage to America (and the world) than Trump, was Jr., Dick and the neocons. They broke the world and we're still trying to put it back together.

Biden's a fucking monster. — StreetlightX

No, he's not. People who think so are stupid. Monster's don't exist.

Trump just wears it on his sleeve like a brand. — StreetlightX

Yeah, a guy who pretends to be a monster that does not exist is worse than one who isn't and doesn't. Pretty simple, really.

This thread is still going?

It means something to Americans. — James Riley

The opinions of morons don't count. But sure, keep up the propaganda. Maybe one day people like you will look into Biden's congressional record, but I don't hold out much hope. See you at the next Trump presidency.