What? I'm not following that. — Banno
science has done very well with assuming that there is a cause and effect for every phenomena in nature — Shawn
Well, let's explore.
PSR = everything in this world has a cause and effect
Now this clearly falls into the logical category of haunted-universe doctrines. It can't be proved, because we are incapable of examining every instance of an effect. Nor can it be disproved, since if we come across an example of an effect for which we cannot find a cause, we might conclude not that there is no such cause but only that we have not yet found it.
SO it's not an empirical notion.
Is it a methodological notion? Does it tell us what we might do, is we are to act in a scientific fashion? In that case, isn't it too strong? We might indeed look for a cause for any event, but we cannot assume ahead of our investigations that there must be one... Nor need we assume that there must be a cause in order to look for a cause. It is open to us to look without such an expectation.
Hence it seems to me that PSR is not needed for either science nor for logic. — Banno
But, that is not to say that every phenomenon is purposeful. — Michael Zwingli
I think I've shown that this is not an assumption of science. — Banno
Is it a methodological notion? Does it tell us what we might do, is we are to act in a scientific fashion? In that case, isn't it too strong? — Banno
Well when we say that this weighs as much as that we are assuming that math really works in describing reality. — Gregory
If it didn't, wouldn't we simply adopt a different logic?Of course the world makes logical sense - logic is just what we do to make sense of the world.The world has to make logical sense, — Gregory
A perfect example of this is the absurd and embarrassing Catholic phenomenon (I was raised Catholic, and was always embarrassed by this) of the various "apparitions of Mary" (you know...Our Lady of this, Our Lady of that). People fallaciously accepting the (drug induced? faith induced? is there a difference?) subjective experience of one or two individuals as proof that "Mary the mother of God" is visiting her blessings upon the world. At least to it's credit, the Vatican has been wise enough never to overtly endorse these absurdities.Many people do not. You hear people speaking of "my truth" or "it's true to me" all the time. — Manuel
The argument for PSR is, as I understand it, that it is necessary to assume PSR in order to do science. My purpose is to question that argument. — Banno
Like our universe, which has no purpose, but rather just happened.What would a purposeless thing look like? — Gregory
Like our universe, which has no purpose, but rather just happened. — Michael Zwingli
Cool.So, what? — Shawn
I believe that with dispensing the Principle of Sufficient Reason, that science and logic so heavily rely on, one is committing oneself to the supernatural or creationism. — Shawn
? Please elaborate. — Michael Zwingli
Seems to me that PSR is needed for Rationalists to do science - Spinoza and Leibniz, and presumably Descartes; but that Rationalism is no longer the basis of science. — Banno
So where does that leave you? We do not need PSR to do logic and science. — Banno
Hence we are not committed to the supernatural or creationism? — Banno
And back tot he OP: without PSR, can't we now dispense with god? — Banno
Then how do we have laws in science then? If I drop two balls at the same time and they fall at the same rate and do this again and again, the principle of sufficient reason says I now know a law. Does not Hume's problems become our own when you reject PSR in science? — Gregory
We'd have to fill that out. We have: "If I drop two balls at the same time and they fall at the same rate and do this again and again"; what is added by including PSR? We have that the acceleration due to gravity is 9.8ms^-1. How does PSR help us here? — Banno
your saying that the PoSR enables one to consider God as an actual existent in this world? — Shawn
Because the reason for what is happening is in our reach. Our minds are sufficient to sufficiently understand a sufficiently understandable world — Gregory
PSR is relied on by those who insist god is needed to explain all sorts of things. Drop PSR, drop those arguments. — Banno
This would be the beginning of the path to disprove God, that 'Nothing' cannot be, making the base something not to be an option but mandatory, it having no alternative or opposite; thus, no supernatural magic is required. — PoeticUniverse
We need PSR to conclude this? — Banno
I disagree. I think I've shown that it is misleading. — Banno
Hahaha, I think I've made less and less sense as time has gone by...than you yourself would no longer make sense — Gregory
Though I agree that reality is the essence of truth, I don't see that as having much to do with the PoSR. The PoSR simply states that every aspect of the natural universe must have a cause underlying it's existence. I agree. The universe is composed of energy and matter, which are mutually interchangeable. Before our universe existed (disregarding that there may be other "universes" distant from ours), all was pure energy. For this energy to have existed, there must have been some happenstance or situation which caused it to exist. This, however, is in no way determinative of the existence of deity. In order for the fact of the original energy from whence our universe to show a deity, that energy must be shown to have been purposeful, rather than arbitrary, which it has not displayed.The point of the PoSR is that truth, when realized, is in accord with reality. — Gregory
I'm not sure what we're talking about in this sentence. "Making sense" is an entirely subjective perception.The world makes sense to me but if you are to say that world doesn't make sense and you are only matter, than you yourself would no longer make sense. — Gregory
that energy must be shown to have been purposeful, rather than arbitrary, which it has not displayed. — Michael Zwingli
The next step in the analysis would be to have to use the same principle of 'The Necessary Existent' for God having to be, as the mandatory Existent, again because there can be no opposite; thus the principle is sound! — PoeticUniverse
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