that safety provides a limitless mandate for the use of power and the breaching of human rights, — Tzeentch

:lol:

Tyranny!

I think you'll have to try that again and don't mention vaccination.

Remember Rome was begun by two brothers raised by a she wolve. — Athena

Eh, they sure as heck don't make she-wolves like they used to. Though maybe that's best for all involved.

And that is the problem, you a few million others do not think they are responsible. — Athena

And they aren't. If you believe the "unvaccinated" are responsible for the covid pandemic, you have simply fallen for the government's "us versus them" narrative hook, line and sinker.

Moreover, If people exercising an unalienable right is a problem to a society, then the society is the problem. Those rights were instated as the absolute lowest standard of what can be considered humane and legitimate statescraft.

I remember page after page of condemnation of Israeli actions towards Palestinians, and the double standard is remarkable. How did we enjoy Israeli framing of Palestinians as a threat to safety, potentially being infected with the virus (terrorism)? The indignation knew no end.

But sprinkle a little fear in people's minds, or tickle their desire for control over others and now we're here.

"Creating and Destroying a Civilization" — Athena

And what is this, if not an attempt at more framing of "the enemy"?

"The unvaccinated" are now a threat to civilization?

The types that use this sort of language either have their rational minds paralyzed with fear, or are drunk on power.

The dilemma is about safety versus liberty, the boundaries we put on those in power; it is about the free press, the independence of academia and the growing power of multinationals. — Tzeentch

Yep. That's right. When Covid is suffocating you to death and you're tearing at your throat with your fingernails because you cannot breathe, you can relax because it's really just about safety v. "freedom," free press, academic independence, and corporate power.

If people exercising an unalienable right is a problem to a society, — Tzeentch

"Unalienable right?" And what right would that be that you're referring to? You're beyond ignorance and just wanking stupid!

If people exercising an unalienable right is a problem to a society, — Tzeentch

That may be true when it comes to exercising rights. But rights must be distinguished from privilege. The courts long ago drew that distinction with driving. You have a right to travel, but you don't have a right to a drivers' license, to use the roads drunk, or to travel any old way you want on public ways. Driving is a privilege. So is a job. You may have the right to work, but you don't have a right to any job you want. A condition can be placed on a job, or access to a venue or a place of business (no shoes, no shirts no service). And government largess (incorporation, licensing, grants, division of federal dollars, etc.) don't have to be doled out to those who don't want to abide the rules in place for eligibility.

If you believe the "unvaccinated" are responsible for the covid pandemic, you have simply fallen for the government's "us versus them" narrative hook, line and sinker. — Tzeentch

Not necessarily. If one removes government from the equation and looks solely at Covid, it would be a genius if it had a brain. It kills just enough people to prevent it's eradication by people. If it killed like the Black Death, etc, then we would have eradicated it with masking and distancing alone, long ago. Because all the people who resisted masks and distancing would not have done so. As cowards, they would have been the first in line to distance an mask up. (These are the tools Fauci was afraid of running on masks like toilet paper, to the exclusion of Doctors and nurses). Every swinging dick and tit in the world would have masked up and distanced and Covid would never have created a single variant. Then, throwing the vaccine on top of that, it would have gone on to history with polio and measles, etc.

However, Covid only killed 700+k in the U.S. and some millions world wide; largely people that the anti-vaxxers don't care about. You know, expendable people. Sick people. Old people. Weak people. Fat people. The people that the strong and wise used to take care of in the old days, before conservatives and Republicans gained such foot-hold in the uneducated community with the attitude that victims had it coming.

But the upshot here is that, the "genius" of an unthinking virus is that it just kills enough to allow people to think it is not worth inconveniencing their lives, which allows it to generate variants that have and will work their way around masking, distancing and vaxxing. As everyone knows, when you aid and abet a virus, you will be rewarded with more. That's how evolution works.

And if you don't believe in evolution, and if God will protect you with your immune system, then you might ask your God why he won't protect you from a vaccine? Is he a pussy? Or could it be that he created the vaccine through scientists working to save people?

It's not the government's "us vs them" narrative. It's the "us vs. them" narrative of the anti-vaxxers who think their privileges are rights. Talk about an entitlement mentality.

Yep. That's right. When Covid is suffocating you to death and you're tearing at your throat with your fingernails because you cannot breathe, you can relax because it's really just about safety v. "freedom," free press, academic independence, and corporate power. — tim wood

You may choose to live in fear. I do not. That is why I am reasonable, and you are not.

"Unalienable right?" And what right would that be that you're referring to? — tim wood

Human Rights Principles :roll:


Not sure what your whole spiel is supposed to convey. :chin:

You think your tirades and personal attacks will convince me of anything other than your deplorable character?

"Unalienable right?" And what right would that be that you're referring to?
— tim wood
Human Rights Principles — Tzeentch

It would be nice if you read your own reference. This merely affirms by claim existence of such rights, qualified as being equally for all. That's it. But I asked you what right in particular you were referring to. Wassa matter, you no understand English?

You think your tirades and personal attacks will convince me of anything other than your deplorable character? — Tzeentch

Suppose what you like. My request to you is to try to be thoughtful/reasonable. So far you're just a knee-jerk sock-puppet for ideas you do not understand.

You may choose to live in fear. I do not. — Tzeentch

You are afraid of a vaccine.

But you are right to be afraid. Be very afraid! The evil people got together, rubbed their hands greedily and said "Let's come up with a six-step plan. 1. We will create a virus in our communist lab and release it upon the people. 2. Using our biometrics and facial recognition software, we will separate the independent, thinking, rebels from the sheep with a distancing requirement. Then we be able to see who the real threats are, and who is not. 3. Then we will further divide with a masking requirement. 4. Then we will reserve the antidote for us (the shepherds, and the good people, the sheep). 5. We will charge them for the antidote through our proxy government, making kajillions of dollars! 6. Then we will release the variant that kills all the rugged individualist, boot-strapping adventurous warrior testosterone types; you know, the real Americans, the real men (and their women folk). They will be proud to have died a valiant death! Once they are out of the way, we can have our communist utopia! But there will be a few underground rebels left, who are smart and recognize us as a big government dystopia. They will fight heroically, but evil will win in the end HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!.

That may be true when it comes to exercising rights. But rights must be distinguished from privilege. The courts long ago drew that distinction with driving. — James Riley

The right of autonomy over one's own body is not a priviledge, it is a human right.

Right to Integrity of the Person

From the United Nations website:

Not only is bodily autonomy a human right, it is the foundation upon which other human rights are built.

It is included, implicitly or explicitly, in many international rights agreements, such as the Programme of Action of the International Conference on Population and Development, the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women and the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities.

Human rights are the bottomline to which we hold states, and indeed all that seperates us from chimpanzees - the sole achievement of mankind over its animal nature over the course of thousands of years.

The two cannot even remotely be compared. A bit stunning people need to be told the importance of human rights on a philosophy forum.

However, Covid only killed 700+k in the U.S. and some millions world wide; largely people that the anti-vaxxers don't care about. — James Riley

But you care, of course, for every single one of those people I'm sure. Because you tell yourself you're a 'good guy', and I'm a 'bad guy'. Quit the framing already, it's predictable and boring.

You are afraid of a vaccine. — James Riley

Not really. I refuse to take the vaccine out of principle.

(PS: I am not an "anti-vaxxer" - I respect people's right to make a decision as much as I expect them to respect mine)

I don't believe the government is using vax's to 'control' people but it is fairly clear that we're talking about freedoms and we've seen creeping laws against 'terrorism,' 'hate speech' and such that have not exactly instilled people with confidence. — I like sushi

Now that is something to talk about. I think Bush really overstepped when he began a war on terrorism. That is to board and I really do not like the way it has been applied to domestic problems. I am pondering what you have said, and the notion of hate speech, and I don't want to sound weird but could it be said we are manifesting the anti-christ with the concepts of terrorism and hate speech? Sorry, but I am coming from the thread about nothing and it looks to me we are creating a problem that did not exist by creating concepts of evil and acting as though these evils are tangible and we need laws to protect us from them, as in the past people worried about protected from Satan. Could a less abstract vocabulary set limits that support our sense of liberty, instead of threaten our sense of liberty?

The right of autonomy over one's own body is not a priviledge, it is a human right. — Tzeentch

I've no problem with that. Like I tried to teach you, though, no one is interfering with that right. No one is holding you down and giving you a shot. No one is interfering with your autonomy over your body. But you have no right to go out into the public right-of-way and spread your disease. You have no right to be a cop. You have no right to be a firefighter. You have no right to go into this or that store without complying with lawful rules and regulations. You have no right to interfere with the bodily autonomy of others by injecting them with your virus.

I refuse to take the vaccine out of principle. — Tzeentch

I just showed you why your principle is not based on right to bodily autonomy. It's base on fear. Fear you will lose your privilege. Fear you will lose what you perceive as entitlement.

Now please, I beg you, before you continue on this misadventure regarding "right to bodily autonomy" understand thatI know what that is and I agree with you fully. No hold on. Wait. One more time, just in case you didn't read that: I know what that is and I agree with you fully. I would never support government tracking you down, cuffing you, vaxxing you and then releasing you. That would be an interference with your right to bodily autonomy. Kind of like preventing a women from having an abortion.

I would, however, support government telling you that you cannot avail yourself of certain privileges unless you obey the rules of getting vaccinated. That would be ON YOU. That would be your freedom of choice. Take your virus home and play with it all you want. But don't come out and interfere with the bodily autonomy of everyone else.

... your principle is not based on right to bodily autonomy. — James Riley

It most certainly is.

There is little a government can take from me that I put any value in, but it can make life impossible to the degree where I have no choice. If you are against that, then we are, roughly speaking, on the same page.

You have not right to interfere with the bodily autonomy of others by injecting them with your virus. — James Riley

Take your virus home and play with it all you want. But don't come out and interfere with the bodily autonomy of everyone else. — James Riley

An unvaccinated person isn't really more infectious than a vaccinated person. In fact, natural immunity is more effective and effective longer than a vaccine. This is more "us versus them" narrative; baseless and inflammatory.

Serious question; how many shots will you take before you object? Five? Ten? At what point will you understand that people do draw a line and say "I will take no more"? Or will you follow authority without question, and expect everyone else to do the same?

Human rights are the bottomline to which we hold states, and indeed all that seperates us from chimpanzees - the sole achievement of mankind over its animal nature over the course of thousands of years. — Tzeentch

It is not a human right to spread disease. When the disease was tuberculosis we separated infected people from the larger society. Typhoid Mary was not allowed to work in kitchens when it was realized she carried the disease. Such decisions are based on science and the protection of the whole of society. Without social efforts to protect everyone. we are unprotected and that is not right. Not when we know the science and can stop pandemics!

Let us be very clear about this. Liberty is not the freedom to do anything we want and to hell with everyone else. Liberty is understanding the law, and in this case, it is law made known through science. Those who refuse to live by the law of science to stop the spread of disease, need to be separated from the rest of the population. They don't have to be vaccinated, they just have to avoid contact with the rest of us. The people who are willing to follow the science can then have liberty. That reasoning is what separates us from the apes.

It is not a human right to spread disease. — Athena

An unvaccinated person isn't really more infectious than a vaccinated person. In fact, natural immunity is more effective and effective longer than a vaccine. — Tzeentch

The right of autonomy over one's own body is not a priviledge, it is a human right.
— Tzeentch — James Riley

Yes, and if you are not vaccinated please stay home so I have the liberty of living without fear of a disease. Our goal is to stop the spread of a deadly disease and if you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem.

An unvaccinated person isn't really more infectious than a vaccinated person. In fact, natural immunity is more effective and effective longer than a vaccine. — Tzeentch

An unvaccinated person is more likely to spread the disease than a vaccinated one. There is absolutely no other reason for the government supporting the effort to stop the spread of the virus.

Thinking the government has any other goal than stopping the spread of the virus is a mental disease.

An unvaccinated person is more likely to spread the disease than a vaccinated one. — Athena

Completely untrue, which is why this argument has long since been abandoned and replaced for the "unvaccinated put more pressure on health services"-argument, which seems to be just as baseless, since in my country about 80% of the people on the IC are vaccinated, in a country where about 80% of the people are vaccinated (Implying there is little to no correlation).

I think you'll have to try that again and don't mention vaccination. — frank

Geeze, I think you are right. But maybe we can salvage this thread? Before our democracy, kings had absolute power and people believed a God gave them that power. How did these monarchies begin?

What makes a democracy different? Hint, the answer is science and a different way of deciding who has authority that is based on reason.

Completely untrue, which is why this argument has long since been abandoned and replaced for the "unvaccinated put more pressure on health services"-argument, which seems to be just as baseless, since in my country about 80% of the people on the IC are vaccinated, in a country where about 80% of the people are vaccinated (Implying there is little to no correlation). — Tzeentch

Please take your arguments about covid to the thread for those arguments and stop derailing this one. This one is about how civilizations are created and destroyed.

Our goal is to stop the spread of a deadly disease and if you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem. — Athena

:100:

It most certainly is. — Tzeentch

No, it is not. Your so-called principle is based on your desire to continue availing yourself of the privileges and benefits of society while not having to face a scary needle.

but it can make life impossible to the degree where I have no choice. — Tzeentch

And there we have it. You find it impossible to stay home with your filthy disease. You want the choice to hurt others.

An unvaccinated person isn't really more infectious than a vaccinated person. In fact, natural immunity is more effective and effective longer than a vaccine. This is more "us versus them" narrative; baseless and inflammatory. — Tzeentch

Okay, Doctor Tzeentch, if you say so. The experts disagree with you. But I know, you did your research.

Serious question; how many shots will you take before you object? Five? Ten? At what point will you understand that people do draw a line and say "I will take no more"? Or will you follow authority without question, and expect everyone else to do the same? — Tzeentch

Well, to be honest, when I joined the Marine Corps I felt like a fucking pin cushion! LOL! They wanted us immune to the panoply of viruses running wild in the third and fourth world shit holes that we went to. However, it turns out, I'd already been stuck several times before that, just to go to school and protect my family, school, community and country. I still get stuck for flu and tetanus every now and then. So, I seriously can't answer your question. Let's just say "a lot." That's what men do. That's what women do. That's what little children do. That's what real Americans do. I can't speak for foreigners. I can't speak for traitors, or for those who aid and abet an enemy or a virus. That ain't in me.

P.S. I like the meme where the little girl asks her mother: "Mommy, what's that mark on your shoulder?" The mother says "Why, that's my polio scar." The little girl ask "Why don't I have one of those?" The mom says "Because it worked."

DOH!

P.S.S. And for those fretting that the Covid vax may become an ongoing thing, guess what? That's only because enough Petri dishes aren't getting it, won't distance and won't mask, so they are cranking out variants.

P.S.S.S. In addition to all those shots, I also use lots of other science and technology. Hell, I even eat and drink stuff without know what's in them.

:100: — James Riley

Thank you James, I am reminded of the Native Americans who were decimated by disease.

Tribes with a leadership that kept them separated from those who spread the disease, survived and those that were friendly with the European's spreading the disease were completely wiped out. A civilization depends very much on leaders making good decisions.

Hitler was able to take control of Germany because Germany had reactionary politics as the US has today. I think the same things that gave Hitler power are what gives Trump power, and that we have already lost the democracy we defended in two world wars. This is about education and culture.

Does anyone here know Weber's explanation of leadership?

Completely untrue, which is why this argument has long since been abandoned and replaced for the "unvaccinated put more pressure on health services"-argument, which seems to be just as baseless, since in my country about 80% of the people on the IC are vaccinated, in a country where about 80% of the people are vaccinated (Implying there is little to no correlation). — Tzeentch

Let us look at why that is untrue.

2. The delta variant broke through the vaccine's waning protection.

It was a perfect storm: The vaccine's waning protection came around the same time the more infectious delta variant arrived in Israel this summer. Delta accounts for nearly all infections in Israel today. — DANIEL ESTRIN

We are back to step one. Wear masks and keep distance and social isolation. It is hoped a third shot will get the desired result of making people immune to the virus and its variants. Understanding this should result in people doubling the effort to stop the virus and the risk of new variants and making the virus endemic. That is by now we should realize how important it is to do what we can to stop the spread the virus. This is not a good time to ignore science and give up.

This thread is completely out of control and useless as a discussion about how civilizations are created and destroyed. If I could I would delete the whole thread and try again to start a discussion of how civilizations are created and destroyed.

Start another thread and don't mention vaccines.

No, it is not. Your so-called principle is based on your desire to continue availing yourself of the privileges and benefits of society while not having to face a scary needle. — James Riley

You're just repeating nonsense on both accounts.

And there we have it. You find it impossible to stay home with your filthy disease. You want the choice to hurt others. — James Riley

Again, untrue. If life is made impossible, in a similar fashion as life is made impossible for Palestinians by Israel, for example, are you against that, or are you for that in the case of unvaccinated?

Okay, Doctor Tzeentch, if you say so. The experts disagree with you. — James Riley

No they don't. You won't find an expert that will tell you an unvaccinated person is more contagious than a vaccinated one, nor will you find one that tells you a vaccine is more effective than natural immunity.

Well, to be honest, when I joined the Marine Corps I felt like a fucking pin cushion! LOL! They wanted us immune to the panoply of viruses running wild in the third and fourth world shit holes that we went to. However, it turns out, I'd already been stuck several times before that, just to go to school and protect my family, school, community and country. I still get stuck for flu and tetanus every now and then. So, I seriously can't answer your question. Let's just say "a lot." — James Riley

You do as you're told and expect others to do the same, but not everyone has this slavish disposition and unwavering faith in government. Maybe I have asked this before, but what exactly is that trust in government based on, considering the US government has a history of unethical medical experimentation?

Also, do you ever wonder what the point is of going to all those third-world countries to drop bombs on poor people? Or is not asking questions about that also a part of being a "real American"?

You're just repeating nonsense on both accounts. — Tzeentch

Well, you admitted it yourself. You just don't want to be inconvenienced by your own choice. Nobody is violating your body.

Again, untrue. If life is made impossible, in a similar fashion as life is made impossible for Palestinians by Israel, for example, are you against that, or are you for that in the case of unvaccinated? — Tzeentch

It's not impossible. You, apparently, don't know how tough life can be. Hiding at home is an easy thing to do. You don't have to hide under the bed. You can watch T.V.! And whine on the interwebs about how evil government won't let you go out and spread disease.

No they don't. You won't find an expert that will tell you an unvaccinated person is more contagious than a vaccinated one, nor will you find one that tells you a vaccine is more effective than natural immunity. — Tzeentch

You'd have to do research that involved more than confirmation bias. But you be you, Dr. Tzeentch. :lol:

You do as you're told and expect others to do the same, but not everyone has this slavish disposition and unwavering faith in government. — Tzeentch

Yeah, not everyone. Just those men and women who made this a country that you want to go out and spread your disease in.

Maybe I have asked this before, but what exactly is that trust in government based on, considering the US government has a history of unethical medical experimentation? — Tzeentch

Well, for me, it's based on the civics and patriotism I was taught in school. It's part of community and selflessness, gratitude, grace, and giving. But that's an old school thing. I don't think they teach kids those kind of things these days. That's not why I joined the Marine Corps, though. That was reckless disregard, risk-taking, courage, and devil-may-care. I got the shot for my loved ones and my community.

I will grant you this, though, if I was black or Indian some other group that the U.S. had experimented on, I might think twice. How about you, Tzeentch? Were your people experimented on by government? Or are you from a privileged class?

Also, do you ever wonder what the point is of going to all those third-world countries to drop bombs on poor people? Or is not asking questions about that also a part of being a "real American"? — Tzeentch

Well, I think going to all those third-world countries to provide them with vaccines, not bombs, is the order of the day. I'm not asking questions about that, and I hear those countries are asking for us to help. So it's really only the stupid people who are refusing to help. The stupid people are the ones dropping virus bombs on the world. What new variant are you working up, Tzeentch?

What I assume you consider valuable members of society put everyone else at risk every day. They step in cars, they don't get their flu shots, they procreate, they smoke cigarettes or drink alcohol, etc.
To cherry pick one particular risk and assign it so much weight is completely inconsistent and unconvincing. — Tzeentch

Err two wrongs still don't make a right.
We still have to deal with the darn virus.