How come you are always referencing turtles when the buck clearly stops at my One as the base? — PoeticUniverse

The leap-frogging turtle metaphor applies to the implicit infinite regress when an eternal buck-stopping agent is denied. In religious arguments it's common to be challenged with "so who created your God?". But the question only makes sense if the deity is subject to the limitations of space-time and matter-energy. Most Christians have no problem answering with "my God is eternal and self-existent". But those who suggest a Multiverse or Many Worlds alternative would be embarrassed to respond with "so is my Multiverse". That sounds too much like "my Material god-substitute versus your Spiritual God". And physicality would logically require an infinite regression of world-cycles in space-time.

However, if your hypothetical One is -- like my ALL -- non-physical, then the turtle-cycle would be unnecessary. And that's why my hypothetical God-substitute is defined as "Ideal" instead of "Real", Which in traditional religious terms would be "Spiritual" instead of "Physical". It's my contention that the Jewish concept of "Spirit" was equivalent to the Greek notion of "Ideal". And both seemed to be referring to the mysterious force in Nature that we now call causal "Energy". It's invisible & intangible, and physical only in that it has observable effects on Matter. Infinite Potential covers all possibilities at once, with no need for physical cycles of reproduction or creation. Hence, the First Cause is like an eternal inexhaustible battery of pent-up energy that is loosed upon the world, only when a feedback circuit is made -- a space-time cycle.

As a similar non-physical notion, Einstein surprised many folks when he declared that Gravity was not a real force. Because everybody knew from personal experience that gravity pulls on real bodies with invisible rope. Even worse, his radical theory pictured Gravity as "warped space". Which makes as much sense as "curved nothingness". But pragmatic scientists eventually learned to go along with that blasphemy against Lord Newton. Yet, Alfred was not done with knocking the props out from classical physics. His outlandish ideas opened the door to Quantum Theory, which like quicksand has undermined the ancient Atomic Theory with invisible intangible Mathematical Fields as the fundamental reality of Physics.

Therefore, as a pragmatic idealist, I have learned to accommodate all those radical paradigm shifts, by accepting the view of an increasing number of physicists and cosmologists, that even those fundamental fields consist of nothing but Information. Which is that same "stuff" that used to exist only in metaphysical Minds. And now even the physical Brains that mysteriously generate invisible mind-fields are ultimately composed of, not things per se, but incorporeal relationships between things. In Math, we call those invisible geometric links "ratios". Which ironically are what we "know" only with our rational power of Reason.Thus, I conclude that the "One", the "All", the "First Cause", the "buck-stopper" is simply the Eternal Enformer. :nerd:


G*D :
An ambiguous spelling of the common name for a supernatural deity. The Enformationism thesis is based upon an unprovable axiom that our world is an idea in the mind of G*D. This eternal deity is not imagined in a physical human body, but in a meta-physical mathematical form, equivalent to LOGOS. Other names : ONE, ALL, BEING, Creator, Enformer, MIND, Nature, Reason, Source, Programmer. The eternal Whole of which all temporal things are a part is not to be feared or worshiped, but appreciated like Nature.
http://blog-glossary.enformationism.info/page13.html

Information :
Claude Shannon quantified Information not as useful ideas, but as a mathematical ratio between meaningful order (1) and meaningless disorder (0); between know-ledge (1) and ignorance (0). So, that meaningful mind-stuff exists in the limbo-land of statistics, producing effects on reality while having no sensory physical properties. We know it exists ideally, only by detecting it via rational inference
http://blog-glossary.enformationism.info/page11.html

TWO SIDES OF SAME COIN

"why are we here? What should we do now that we are here? And how should we live?"
___Gnomon

Cool video! So the answer is Be Here Now? Don't worry about what was, or will be. Sufficient unto the day . . . . . . .

But those who suggest a Multiverse or Many Worlds alternative would be embarrassed to respond with "so is my Multiverse". That sounds too much like "my Material god-substitute versus your Spiritual God". — Gnomon

That's fine for some, but it's not 'God'; it's just the simple basis of the more complex as the Ground of Determination.

And physicality would logically require an infinite regression of world-cycles in space-time. — Gnomon

? The one and only basis remains; no regress.

His outlandish ideas opened the door to Quantum Theory, which like quicksand has undermined the ancient Atomic Theory with invisible intangible Mathematical Fields as the fundamental reality of Physics. — Gnomon

Einstein's discovery of the quantum discreteness of photons proved true, so it was not outlandish.

The quantum fields are the basis of all the physical goings on in our universe, so they are physical. They are not made of math, but their physical operations are amenable to being described by math, the physical quantum fields results matching the math predictions, thus confirming the quantum fields.

physical Brains that mysteriously generate invisible mind-fields are ultimately composed of, not things per se, but incorporeal relationships between things. — Gnomon

We do see the mind-fields, and that is all we ever 'see'; they're as maps made in the brain process of consciousness.

That's fine for some, but it's not 'God'; it's just the simple basis of the more complex as the Ground of Determination. — PoeticUniverse

Of course. That's the point of the Multiverse hypothesis. Instead of a First Cause, it's a more-of-the-same-forever infinite (no beginning or end) chain-of-causation --- or a cosmic Conga Line of turtles, if you prefer a more concrete image. :wink:

? The one and only basis remains; no regress. — PoeticUniverse

Yes, but is the "One" physical & ever-changing, or meta-physical & omni-potential? :chin:

Einstein's discovery of the quantum discreteness of photons proved true, so it was not outlandish. — PoeticUniverse

True. But at the time it sounded unorthodox, hence "outlandish" (alien ; foreign) for the wave-propagation orthodoxy of the day. :smile:

Why No One Believed Einstein :
https://daily.jstor.org/why-no-one-believed-einstein/

We do see the mind-fields, and that is all we ever 'see'; they're as maps made in the brain process of consciousness. — PoeticUniverse

Is that what psychics "see" as the human Aura? What color is yours? Mine is boring beige. :joke:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aura_(paranormal)

Yes, but is the "One" physical & ever-changing, or meta-physical & omni-potential? — Gnomon

It remains as the physical One; its rearrangements are temporary; it doesn't make new substances; it is ever itself.

Eterne’s Great Wheel e’er whirls its energy,
It having to turn and return, to be,
'Transmuting', as ne’er still—eternally,
Into life’s temporary pattern-trees.

Moves of the Eterne dooms forms’ permanence;
But the patient time til their expiration
Restrains for some while the shapes’ destructance;
Thus they can slowly traverse life’s distance.

Is that what psychics "see" as the human Aura? — Gnomon

Not at all. It is the contents of consciousness.

So the answer is Be Here Now? Don't worry about what was, or will be. Sufficient unto the day . . . . . . . — Gnomon

"No salvation." — Gnomon

Would you your sparkle of Existence spend
Beyond The ‘Vacuum’—quick about it, Friend!
A Hair perhaps divides the False from True—
And upon what, prithee, may all depend?

The Simple Hair divides the False and True;
Yes; and the single Alif is the clue,
As the Quantum Field—to the Treasure-house,
Though not adventure in The Master’s brew.

Forget about the blame and also the fame—
The Great Wheel’s not designed in any name,
Since, with no beginning, it ne’er became;
Thus no Alif through Ye: it’s e’er the same.

My spirit to the Causeless was near blind:
Quoth I, ‘If the Beginning you could find—
The Alif—of word, phrase, and uni-verse,
Thou needs not the alphabet—all’s been mined.’

Seize the moment or lose its momentum,
Wearing time as your royal diadem;
Richly accelerate life’s momentous gem,
Letting your motto be ‘Carpe diem’.

World does not pass by; you pass through it;
Clear your being so the treasure may arrive;
This spirit sparkles of a different light,
The gemstones are of a different mine,

Whose secret Presence through transient veins
Running Quicksilver-like fuels your gains;
Taking all shapes from fish to moon as
They change and perish all—but It remains.

The best of all that is below the moon
And above the fish is beauty’s commune,
In her wine poured and sipped, all else forgone,
From Mah to Mahi, raptured noon to noon.

The Secret guessed—then back behind the Fold
Immerst of Darkness round the Drama roll’d
Which, for the Pastime of Eternity,
Doth It all contrive, enact, and get told.

’Twas writ each time, whatever was to be,
By quill, unheeding bliss or misery,  
Yea, writ upon each tablet universe—
To murmur or resist is vanity. 

Outputs must have inputs, they in turning
Becoming inputs to more fates churning,
Temporary; all is writ, on every path,
As in ours, so what must be will e’er spring.

Each morn springs thee over the wasteland’s brink,
And on time’s sand you the oasis drink.
Life’s strange caravan through the desert winds,
Back toward Nothing; drink—afore the stars sink.

O unenlightened race of humankind,
Ye are temporary, built on empty wind!  
Yea, a mere nothing, hovering in the abyss,
Writ on water with smoke and fog, resigned!

And so in vain, down on the stubborn Floor
Of Earth, and up to Heav’n’s unopening Door,
You gaze To-day, while You are You—how then
To-morrow, when You shall be You no more.(Omar direct)

It remains as the physical One; its rearrangements are temporary; it doesn't make new substances; it is ever itself. — PoeticUniverse

Sounds like the TAO, or LOGOS, to which I compare my G*D concept. However, like Energy, G*D is not a physical object, but a functional process or flow. It's an "essence" not a physical substance. It's ineffable ; so you can't point to it and say "there it is". It's a holistic pattern of relationships, not an individual thing ; so you can know about it, but not see it. Therefore, as a system, I call it "Meta-Physical", in the sense that it is more than the sum of its physical parts. :smile:

TAO : The Tao can be roughly thought of as the flow of the Universe, or as some essence or pattern behind the natural world that keeps the Universe balanced.
In all its uses, the Tao is considered to have ineffable qualities that prevent it from being defined or expressed in words.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tao

Since, with no beginning, it ne’er became;
Thus no Alif through Ye: it’s e’er the same. — PoeticUniverse

That's why I distinguish the meta-physical eternal TAO or G*D or LOGOS from the space-time bubble of the physical temporal world :
First begat in a Bang, destined to die in a Sigh . . . . . :cool:

Sounds like the TAO — Gnomon

Bounded by non-existent absolutes,
The Essence lies between the Null and Full—
As relations of all that’s possible,
Exuding universes, first begat
In a Bang, destined to die in a sigh.

the meta-physical eternal TAO or G*D or LOGOS — Gnomon

Isn't this more than 'Nothing'. Isn't it still a something in some kind of realm as above in that realm's level as tangible to that realm but not to ours?

Isn't this more than 'Nothing'. Isn't it still a something in some kind of realm as above in that realm's level as tangible to that realm but not to ours? — PoeticUniverse

Yes, but it's a mental something (subjective idea, not objective object). So such abstract universals as G*D or TAO don't fall under the category of physical scientific things. Instead, they are metaphysical philosophical non-things. Knowable, but non-tangible. Holistic all-things, but not reductive things. More than nothing, in the sense that Infinity is more than nothing. :smile:

Thing :
1. an object that one need not, cannot, or does not wish to give a specific name to.
2. an inanimate material object as distinct from a living sentient being.

"The Way" is more than the pavement.

it's a mental something (subjective idea, not objective object). — Gnomon

Too complicated to be the Basis of everything.

I'll just have to leave it all to be invisible…

The Eternal Saki

(First one is Omar’s, the rest are mine))

And fear not lest Existence closing your
Account, and mine, should know the like no more;
The Eternal Saki from that Bowl has pour’d
Millions of Bubbles like us, and will pour.

Yet worry you that this Cosmos is the last,
That the likes of us will become the past,
Space wondering whither whence we went
After the last of us her life has spent?

The Eternal Saki has formed trillions of baubles
Like ours, for e’er—the comings and passings
Of which it ever emits to immerse
In the universal bubbles blown and burst.

So fear not that a debit close your
Account and mine, knowing the like no more;
The Eternal Source from its pot has pour’d
Zillions of bubbles like ours, and will pour.

What though the sky with its blue canopy
Doth close us in so that we can not see,  
In the etern Cupbearer’s wine methinks
There float a myriad bubbles like to me.

So, as thus thou lives on yester’s credit line,
In nowhere’s midst, now in this life of thine,
As of its bowl our cup of brew is mixed
Into the state of being that’s called ‘mine’.

Behind the Veil, being that which e’er thrives,
The Eternal ‘IS’ has ever been alive,
For that which hath no onset cannot die,
Nor a point from which to have any guide.