There's a gap between what god commands and what we do, a point at which we make a decision to do as commanded or not. — Banno
How on earth can one have reason to believe that they have received revelation other than some sort of subjective experience? Furthermore, how would reason have greater authority than the revelation received? It is quite literally the word of god, so it cannot be challenged. Maybe reason can aid in its application, however? — ToothyMaw
What our punishments must be for our guilt is already known by god, so he knows exactly what each of us is going to be exposed to and could arrange the world in such a way as to make the punishments make sense if he wanted. Yet he doesn't do this. — ToothyMaw
Thus, god punishes unjustly, and therefore is unjust. I don't know how that ties into omnibenevolence, but an unjust god seems undesirable. — ToothyMaw
And if you want confirmation that we are living in a prison, just look around you at others, or look inside yourself. Notice that pretty much everyone you meet has some vice or other. And notice that you do too.
— Bartricks
True enough. — ToothyMaw
Yes, he could - that's one option, one possibility. But it seems more efficient and consistent with being good to expose people to a risk of harm, rather than actually to mete the harm out oneself. I also think God would be ignorant of much of what goes on here, for why would God trouble himself to find out what people he hates are getting up to? — Bartricks
Yes, he could - that's one option, one possibility. But it seems more efficient and consistent with being good to expose people to a risk of harm, rather than actually to mete the harm out oneself. I also think God would be ignorant of much of what goes on here, for why would God trouble himself to find out what people he hates are getting up to? — Bartricks
So you accept that this is a world full of wrongdoers - full of people who deserve to come to harm of one sort or another. And it is a world in which they do! — Bartricks
That's just question begging. As I keep pointing out, being good doesn't involve indiscriminately preventing harms - it matters who is coming to harm. Good people among us do not campaign to release prisoners from jails, do we? We're not less good for that. They deserve to be there and releasing them would pose a great danger to others. — Bartricks
I'm saying if god allows people to come to disproportionate harm then he is unjust - not unjust for not preventing all harm. — ToothyMaw
Never said I think people deserve to come to harm; even despicable people need to be loved and rehabilitated. If harm befalls them during this process then so be it, but other than that I don't think anyone deserves harm. — ToothyMaw
Is god aware of what is going to happen to people or not? If so he is unjust if the harm incurred by different people is disproportionate to their guilt. If not he is not omniscient*. — ToothyMaw
According to what criterion can we determine if God is unjust? — ToothyMaw
And where do I say otherwise? You don't seem to understand my position. If God exists, he does not allow injustices to occur. He's good and omnipotent, for goodness sake! — Bartricks
I don't believe justice is necessarily a permutation of omnibenevolence unless god makes justice an objective, moral necessity. — ToothyMaw
We use our reason. Our faculty of reason is our source of insight into what is right and good. And from such intuitions we can infer something about God's character. So, God hates it when people are unkind. I infer that from the fact that we all seem bid - and bid in no uncertain terms - be kind. God is clearly pro kindness, then. And God seems to hate unkindness so much that he wants those who are unkind to come to harm. I infer that from the fact my reason tells me that if someone is unkind, they deserve to come to harm. — Bartricks
If a child comes to some great harm, doesn't the badness of that reside in the fact the child is innocent? — Bartricks
You are assuming that god created us in his image, a decidedly Theistic thing to believe. — ToothyMaw
I would think that it is worse for a harm to befall a child because they are developing and trauma could cause them to become maladjusted. Or so I think, at least - I'm no psychologist. — ToothyMaw
You quite literally said that we can infer god's characteristics from our own. How is that not believing that we are created in god's image? — ToothyMaw
If I am told to be kind, generous, and so on, I can infer - fairly safely, though not infallibly - that the person issuing such instructions really likes kindness and generosity. — Bartricks
And from that I can infer - again, not entirely reliably - that this person is therefore probably kind and generous themselves. — Bartricks
Who is telling us and how? — ToothyMaw
I still think that your view is the counterintuitive one. What about the preacher who develops Huntington's and the child-murderer that walks free and healthy? — ToothyMaw
So not only is god omnibenevolent, he doesn't allow injustices. — ToothyMaw
So you actually think these people deserved what they got. Good on you, Batricks, you fucking psycho. — ToothyMaw
Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.