The Question is: "Do You Believe In Fate or In Free-Will?" — Lindsay

I don't care either way. We certainly have the illusion of free will. Sit back and enjoy.

I am thinking of free will as the ability to be creative.
Creativity = bringing something new into existence?
Is it possible to bring something new into existence?
Bring from where? and to where?
New: not existing before. Is there anything that has never existed before? How could we know?
Does creativity mean bringing something new into existence from nothing?
Can something come from nothing? Is 'nothing' a word with no referent?

Edit: More on point: Free will = creating one's destiny? Fate = one's latent creative potential and limitations? — Yohan

Well, creativity is one way you can use your ability of having free-will. Of course it's possible to bring something and of course, someone new into existence. Anything is possible in this vast planet and vast universe that we live in. Always be prepared to be surprised. The same can be said about life in general as human-beings.

"Not existing before, how could we know? Existing from nothing?"
Well, we probably would not ever be able to know, because there are a lot of things we will ever be able to fully able to understand; not philosophically, not scientifically, etc. Some things are just not meant to be rationally/logically explainable for us humans to be able to understand. And we need to be able to accept what we can't understand, and be excited and in wonder of what we can discuss and explore on topics about. Some questions just have no answers that we can get a grip on. But hey, that's just my opinion.

I fuly respect your thoughts, education, opinions, and perspective on this topic. But I believe we're going to have to agree to disagree on this particular topic. However, I must say, you seem highly intelligent; and that's a wonderful thing. I respect intelligence. Thank you for posting your perspective.

"Free will" is will in relations of repression. The individual finds freedom in the execution of it's duty.
It is the fate.

1.) I read the menu and choose - "Black coffee and scrambled eggs on toast, please, waitress."

Breakfast is served.


2.) I don't read the menu - "Bring me what I am predetermined to have, please, waitress."
Alas the waitress, though she believes in determinism, is determined to aver that she does not know what I am determined to eat, and that my determined choice must determine what she brings, and if I am determined not to choose she is determined to bring me nothing.

I am determined to fast.

Therefore, I am determined to believe in free will until after breakfast.

But I believe we're going to have to agree to disagree on this particular topic. — Lindsay

Ohhh agreeing to disagree holds so little except for an uneasy silence... I also think such a truce will never hold. Between us it will of course, but you will be drawn to the topic again and again anyway, and you will engage with these thoughts, whether you will it, or not. For such is the fate of someone interested in philosophy. Or you might be a believer at heart, someone who resigns, out of free will or otherwise, to faith. Thank you,for your kind words :)

Therefore, I am determined to believe in free will until after breakfast. — unenlightened

Well said. Yes, that is the truely wicked part of the problem.

I have a hunch that the lack of free will is not due to fate or determinism, but to profound chaos, perhaps not properly chaos, if humanity had the intellect to understand such profound complexity, but it does appear to be unfathomable which we tend to think of as chaos.

I reject both. Why you include only those two options?

Please expand, what should it look like. Do you reject the lack of free will, and do you reject the idea of chaos Please, help me to understand.

I am addressing the question in the OP.
"The Question is: "Do You Believe In Fate or In Free-Will?""
It appeared strange to me to see an "A or B" set of choices.
i.e. I reject Fate and I reject Free-will . A. I don't know how one can demonstrate the concept of "fate" and B. we know from science that while we all have will.....its not that free.
Chaos, a "noise'' in every physical process renders Fate questionable at best

Everything thats happened couldn't of happened, if everything that happened before didn't happen exactly as it did. Fate is just a word to refer to one specific things inevitable role. The future is set in stone but completely unpredictable. I think words like fate help is deal with being stripped of free will.

The A and B are a denial that either exists, otherwise we are in agreement.

I don't get what you mean.
THe OP asks an A or B question. My objection is , why there isn't a C on that question. Is it because the question is a false dichotomy or because the author is interested only in those two alone.
i.e I reject the existence of both based on our current scientific knowledge, but my position is not included in that question.

You feel you are totally restricted by the context of the question? The OP might not have realized that its possible to negate both, that perhaps he has presented a false dichotomy.

this is a text book example of a false dichotomy....unless the author doesn't care to address any alternative perspective in this thread.

Fate is defined as: “the development of events beyond a person’s control, regarded as determined by a supernatural power.” And, as for Free-Will, this is defined as: “the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one’s own discretion.” So, in hindsight, they’re complete opposites when you look at the meanings behind the terms. — Lindsay

Then this seems to beg the question. What does it mean to act at one's own discretion? It's as if free-will can achieve different things given the same set of circumstances. What choice would you have made in any given instance that would be different given the same set of circumstances, or information?

What about the saying, "Only an idiot keeps doing the same thing and expects a different result." Is the one that believes in free-will the idiot for thinking that they could have made a different decision given the same information?

Well, creativity is one way you can use your ability of having free-will. — Lindsay

Perhaps. I get the sense that free-will, if it exists, is inherently creative. To make I think is the same as to create, and we talk of making decisions.

God never said to Adam, "Humanity is free". Eve did.

Lets assume there is no freedom of the will.
This is not problem for those who believe in free will, provided there exists creativity.

I argue there is real creativity, otherwise we would be exactly the same as the first humans. Consider the drastic shifts in human thought and activity that followed Socrates, Jesus, or the Enlightement. There are the claims like "no art is truly original". My response would be, "definitely not with that attitude". Show me the caveman who could draw Spiderman, create exactly Mozart's music from scratch, or Shakespeare's plays.

If creativity exists, and freedom of the will doesn't then I will just create freedom of the will.

Do you live a healthier life by not challenging the boundaries of your experience as if you had freedom? If not, then even if we are deterministically bound, you should hope that one day, some deterministic factor inspires you to believe you do have freedom of the will, otherwise you might not "deterministically" get to make unique choices and go on cool adventures like the hero of a story, who takes that first step into the unknown.

If I was destined to do write these exact words from the very conception of the universe, and every conception I have of freedom is mere illusion, I am not even slightly deterred. What would "real" freedom look like if it was not an illusion? Would it look any different, at all? If I create a world with freedom of the will and a world that looks EXACTLY like it has freedom of the will but doesn't, and (fittingly enough) ask you to choose between them, would you be able to tell the difference?

To the "deterministic" God of the universe, I have this to say: I do not care if you will not grant me freedom of the will, because I am just going to make it for myself. And even if I fail, the fun I have along the way will be worth having sacrificed literally nothing but a complacent attitude.

(bit sporadic I know but I have alot to say about this)

While on the other hand we have “Free-Will”, which puts YOU in the driver’s seat — Lindsay

YOU ??? and what is that?

Before you ask questions about whether "YOU" have control or not, or whether "YOU" are going to an afterlife or not, first find out if you even exist, if you are even here now.

Otherwise we might as well talk about whether the invisible pink unicorn can fly or not.

Maybe you want to talk about whether THE MIND has free-will or not. Depends how you define free-will:
1- Making choices? Well then obviously the mind has free-will.
2- Making choices out of thin air with no preceding cause like magic? Well then logically the mind does not have free-will, unless you want to believe in magic.

So to get your belief decide between logic or magic.

God never said to Adam, "Humanity is free". Eve did — SatmBopd

Goodness. What did Adam say in reply? Do tell.

Eve offered him the apple, and he said "lol ok".

We just bounce from one happenstance to another, ever play pinball. Neurology has pretty much eliminated the concept of a free well. This really fucks up the sin thing, and also plays havoc with what to do with those who break the rules. Of necessity some people will always need to be isolated from the general population--- so, no free will and no fate, its just not that orderly.

I've never encountered fate; all my information on this mysterious force, fate, is second-hand. I can imagine though: I'm sitting in the airport lounge waiting for my flight. Everything seems ok. A voice over the PAS announces that all passengers bound for Osaka must now begin boarding. I calmly slip my hands into my coat pocket to retrieve my ticket. It's not there! I've lost my ticket. I can't fly.

Just then the person beside me, taking another flight, sighs in dismay. I glance at where he's looking. A flashing message reads "Flight F187 to Vancouver: canceled".

10 years later, we're a happily married couple with 4 children. He's my soulmate and I'm his (we found that out later).

Fate! I suppose it refers to things that seem like as if they were meant to happen!

Free will: I mind my own business and he minds his. Nothing happens! This is the usual.