If everything you could ever achieve will be undone, it seems to me like the only solution is to enjoy the process. It's difficult for me though. The pain in my life far outweighs any joy and I'm not sure how to change this. I started by making a list of the things that bother me. I thought I would take a Schopenhauer-like approach and achieve happiness indirectly by eliminating things that made me unhappy, but now I'm towards the end of the list and only a little happier.

The pain in my life far outweighs any joy and I'm not sure how to change this. — Nicholas Mihaila

Hi Nicholas Mihaila. Welcome!

Pain always has a sneaky way of appearing bigger than it really is. There's much to say about this, but one of those is that pain and/or negative emotions do have more impact on our feeling of well being than what feeling of happiness can do. It sucks. But studies have shown this is so.

At the risk of sounding cliché, I'd say that what you're experiencing is an existential one. And yes, it eats into our motivation for the arts, and appreciation of the arts.

Unfortunately, there's no magic anything to use for it. Live in the now, I suppose. Don't be concerned about the future.

I like the Emil Cioran quote.

My problem is that I see almost everything as completely pointless and this has profoundly affected my happiness. — Nicholas Mihaila

I have also said in my posts in the past that happiness shouldn't be the goal -- but equilibrium. Don't expect profound enlightenment, uncontained joy and excitement, euphoria, nirvana, or on-top-of-the-world experience. Just live in the now and maintain self-equilibrium.

I see almost everything as completely pointless — Nicholas Mihaila

I make good money and can afford to do what I like, but there’s nothing I want. — Nicholas Mihaila

If everything is pointless and there is nothing you want, then why on earth are you working? Is working not pointless?

I don't know how you arrived 'where you are', but I don't think it is difficult to get there. One starts down a downhill path, and before long you are picking up speed, and in no time you have arrived at an impasse of pointlessness.

The point is: It has always been our human task to provide meaning; the universe doesn't provide it. Since you are working and making good money, you must be a fully functional person. Coming up with some positive thought is well within your operational capabilities. Step One is to stop staring into the abyss. There is nothing to get from it. Step Two is to wean yourself off the cycle of meaningless thinking.

The goal isn't some syrupy, candy-flavored fantasy. Rather, dry solid rock. A positive philosophy may not make you happy, but it will get you a lot farther than nihilism. There are whole libraries stocked with positive options.

there’s nothing I want. — Nicholas Mihaila

I’m hoping to get input — Nicholas Mihaila

Do you want some input, or is there nothing you want?

If you pick a bunch of flowers for your love, she will not reject them because they will wilt and die in a few days. Au contraire, it is the ephemerality that makes them precious. Plastic flowers last much longer, but your love will not appreciate plastic flowers.

We are all like flowers, doomed to wither and be forgotten, but this does not make life meaningless - it would be meaningless if it lasted forever - but it is precious and meaningful because it is unique and fleeting.

But probably you cannot understand this, because you are too focussed on yourself and your own happiness and eternal fame and so on. You cannot find it there, because it lies in relationships with the world:-

I agree with your point about striving to maintain equilibrium. I've given up all hope for some grand reconciliation. There isn't one.

Live in the now, I suppose. Don't be concerned about the future. — Caldwell

That's what I'm trying to do. I'm currently in a cafe enjoying some coffee. The existential dread is like background noise, and the coffee tastes good. :)

If everything is pointless and there is nothing you want, then why on earth are you working? Is working not pointless? — Bitter Crank

To be fair, I did qualify my statement ("almost"). I work as a pediatric nurse and helping people is one of the only things that I still find worthwhile. I dropped out of college during my senior year as a chemical engineering student for this reason.

It has always been our human task to provide meaning; the universe doesn't provide it. Since you are working and making good money, you must be a fully functional person. Coming up with some positive thought is well within your operational capabilities. Step One is to stop staring into the abyss. There is nothing to get from it. Step Two is to wean yourself off the cycle of meaningless thinking.

The goal isn't some syrupy, candy-flavored fantasy. Rather, dry solid rock. A positive philosophy may not make you happy, but it will get you a lot farther than nihilism. — Bitter Crank

Very well put! As I'm currently finishing up crossing items off my list of things that make me unhappy, a gradual shift in my thinking (or focus rather) seems to be the next logical step.

Do you want some input, or is there nothing you want? — unenlightened

Yes, if interpreted literally, that's a contradiction. I think you know what I mean though.

Au contraire, it is the ephemerality that makes them precious — unenlightened

I've given a lot of thought to the idea that ephemerality increases the value of things. I don't subscribe to this idea though. I think something may have value despite being ephemeral, but I wouldn't attribute its value to ephemerality or argue that ephemerality augments its value in some way.

But probably you cannot understand this, because you are too focussed on yourself and your own happiness and eternal fame and so on. — unenlightened

I think when I talked about being forgotten I may have painted the wrong picture. this would mean that value depends on recognition. It would be like arguing that if a tree falls in the forest and there's nobody around to hear it, it wouldn't make a sound. Also, it's my interactions with other people that are the only source of fulfillment in my life. The problem is that it's just not enough. Any fulfillment I experience is dwarfed by suffering.

I make good money and can afford to do what I like, but there’s nothing I want. Anyway, I’m posting here because I’m hoping to get input from people who have been in a similar position and found some resolution. — Nicholas Mihaila

Usually the solution to this type nihilism involves seeing yourself more as part of a greater whole, that consequentially has a function or purpose in that larger whole.... Problem is we don't especially live in a culture right now that is conductive to this kind of solution, because any type of communitarian feeling be it religious or non-religious has essentially been hollowed out by individualism/capitalism/consumerism.

Anyway this is maybe not so much a resolution, but more of a recognition that you're not alone i guess.

I wrote sometime ago: "There is X and there is Y, and the simple fact that neither one matters itself does not matter, so they proceed apace as if they did, and that is all that matters."

If nothing matters, then that does not matter. Fork that bronc and ride!

Seeking for happiness is a dead-end, anyways, just like nihilism. Seeking for an incline in the decline is a fools’ errand. I found that it is better to return to the objective, to remember that each of us is a visible object that will inevitably affect the lives of others, and to make that object as interesting or as beautiful as possible, even if it results in our own pain and suffering. The only way to create tangible value in that sense is to become valuable.

I think you would benefit from reading Spinoza. He's very similar to Nietzsche in some ways, but in other ways closer to the Stoics or even Taoists. Even he came to the conclusion that all things that were impermanent were going to be unsatisfying. Spinoza's solution? Find happiness in something that is eternal, which is your power of understanding. These are some good posts that go into this sort of thing from a Spinozist angle:

https://www.academia.edu/36390747/Affective_Therapy_Spinozas_Approach_to_Self_Cultivation

https://martinbutler.eu/spinoza-on-desire/

https://martinbutler.eu/sweet-dissatisfaction/

https://martinbutler.eu/wp-content/uploads/MasteringEmotionalPain.pdf

https://martinbutler.eu/an-antidote-to-inner-emptiness/

https://www.youtube.com/c/MartinButlers

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFaZ3oYd5R77HVit9NzJLKA

Butler has a great channel. A decent philosophical mind who explains Spinoza's philosophy easily. He can contradict himself and be a bit too pessimistic at times, but his work is invaluable.

If you don't like Spinoza (He's quite technical, and honestly boring to read) the Nietzschean angle on all of this was very helpful too. I hope you find these useful. Reginster explains the Will to Power better than anyone I've seen:

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/233570734.pdf

https://www.jstor.org/stable/43154731

https://philpapers.org/rec/REGTWT

I'm going to go against the grain here as one of the only philosophical pessimists on this forum, and your OP seems right in my lane to respond to..

We always see the term "human condition" in philosophical literature.. but that is a slippery term up for interpretation. Here is how I think it does fit as a useful term:

A "human condition" would be something that is apart from other living creatures' conditions (like animal/plant/non-sentential). So what in the human condition, sets us apart? Well, we can judge what we are doing as we are doing it. We are (probably) the only animal that can do a task related to keeping us alive and make linguistic-based judgements like, "I hate doing this task" while you are doing that task.. And that task might be something like work, or chores, or driving in traffic, or picking through the trash, or whatever it is you find yourself doing to keep yourself alive in some sort of socio-economic system (most likely it will be how you fit into the global industrialized one we have today unless it is as a tribal person in a hunting-gathering localized one or Robinson Crusoe situation). This provides an extra layer of pessimism on top of simply surviving. We cannot just "be" in our enivrons, but we must know that we are being, and we can judge any task, any moment, any thing as negative. This is the human condition- our ability to have a secondary layer of knowing on top of just "being" as other animals seem to have.

Also, you should read up on Schopenhauer. He really gets to the heart of existing "in the first place". Basically his theory is that of constant uneasiness and dissatisfaction. We must keep our minds occupied, and it is up to us, because as Sartre said: "Existence precedes essence". There is no reason for this or that motivational goal. The true main motivators seem to be survival-related needs, comfort-related needs (both relative to culture), and a heavy dose of boredom-related needs. We are never satisfied just "being" but always running around, filling up the time, and providing all sorts of reasons based on personality-based preferences for why we did it. But really, it's boredom and survival (within a cultural socio-economic base).

When you say life has no meaning, implicitly what you're saying is, "Life has no meaning to something else besides myself".

Likely you were raised by parents who told you to accomplish things for some grand goal. You might have been in a religion that told you to give your life meaning. Or your culture told you to do something for some meaning. What you are realizing, is that was all for them, not yourself.

No, there is no emotion of meaning in what you do for others innately. Yes, in the end everything will be destroyed. But do you care for yourself, or do you care because others won't be around to remember your greatness?

True meaning is what gives YOUR life meaning. It doesn't matter if your life won't extend to tomorrow, you're alive today right? You want to do something at the end of the day, fulfills you. To feel like you enjoyed existing that day. To feel like you could enjoy existing tomorrow if it comes.

What you found when you stopped studying engineering was you didn't want to actually do that job. That was what other people told you what you would likely enjoy, benefit you, or benefit their own social standing or structure.

You are learning that you don't have to do what society wants. You are learning that you will never have meaning in what society wants. That is the existential crisis, as you have been raised to think that way for societies benefit. You're free. You can do what you want. If you do not want anything apart from what you have, there is nothing wrong with that. If you want more than what you have, there is nothing wrong with that. Enjoy your freedom, and when you learn to let go of what society expects or thinks, you'll find happiness and peace.

I make good money and can afford to do what I like, but there’s nothing I want. Anyway, I’m posting here because I’m hoping to get input from people who have been in a similar position and found some resolution. — Nicholas Mihaila

What works for me is that instead of striving for a happy life, I live for a proper death. After all, Were all gonna kick the can someday.

. My problem is that I see almost everything as completely pointless and this has profoundly affected my happiness. I used to study endlessly, but now I don’t see any purpose to it. You could work your entire life only to make a scratch on the edifice, but you’ll surely be forgotten afterwards. Even if you weren’t, the universe itself has a lifespan, so everything in it will eventually be undone. I used to play the piano too, but somehow I’ve lost motivation to play when I view it through this lens of hopelessness. — Nicholas Mihaila

Woody Allen made a career out of this idea. Many people at some point come to the conclusion that nothing matters, that life is meaningless and that in the end everything is lost. Generally this hits you in your twenties and it either halts you in your tracks or gives you a new place to start. The choice is yours.

I decided as a teenager that the only meaning available to people was the one they made for themselves. Even religious meaning is subjective because we are generally drawn to a spirituality that appeals to our personal preferences.

I'm no Buddhist but I found these ideas helpful decades ago when I first grappled with meaninglessness.

The Four Aryan (or Noble) Truths are perhaps the most basic formulation of the Buddha’s teaching. They may be expressed as follows:

1. All existence is dukkha. The word dukkha has been variously translated as ‘suffering’, ‘anguish’, ‘pain’, or ‘unsatisfactoriness’. The Buddha’s insight was that our lives are a struggle, and we do not find ultimate happiness or satisfaction in anything we experience. This is the problem of existence.

2. The cause of dukkha is craving. The natural human tendency is to blame our difficulties on things outside ourselves. But the Buddha says that their actual root is to be found in the mind itself. In particular our tendency to grasp at things (or alternatively to push them away) places us fundamentally at odds with the way life really is.

3. The cessation of dukkha comes with the cessation of craving. As we are the ultimate cause of our difficulties, we are also the solution. We cannot change the things that happen to us, but we can change our responses.

I don't know how old you are, but... I'm an idealist, and the existential nightmare is still persistent. Eventually, with luck, you stop trying to make sense of things. Because logic is decidedly not at the root of how society is structured, and people are largely ignorant of that fact by persuasion. As for happiness...no...that's not even supposed to be a permanent state of affairs. Me, I'm contented with tranquility.

:up:

Lots of things here I agree with.

Leopardi has a nice response to some of the issues you raise, I quote him here: https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/599109

What you believe and what you feel are two separate things that are often in conflict.

The most effective way to deal with the absurdity of reality, that I have found, is to shrug my shoulders, and make sure I get enough sleep. Stay calm and lucid.

:death: :flower:

A quote from Emil Cioran sums up my feelings nicely:

“Lucidity does not extirpate the desire to live—far from it, lucidity merely makes us unsuited to life.”

I make good money and can afford to do what I like, but there’s nothing I want. — Nicholas Mihaila

Think on what you need and do that.

If everything you could ever achieve will be undone, it seems to me like the only solution is to enjoy the process. It's difficult for me though. — Nicholas Mihaila

Still unmotivated, Nicholas? Well, Cioran might say you are graced with sloth. Take solace in boredom; after all, life is short.

:100:

:up:

I work as a pediatric nurse and helping people is one of the only things that I still find worthwhile. — Nicholas Mihaila

Your situation is MUCH better than I first thought. You find helping people worthwhile. That's solid rock! Were you so alienated, so mired in anomie, so pessimistic that "helping people" didn't seem worthwhile or meaningful, you'd be in a very dark hole indeed. But you are not.

We all have to put together a suite of workable beliefs that help us get through the day. Well, I suppose we don't have to, but having them makes life better.

BTW, there is indeed plenty of pointlessness and meaninglessness in the world. Try to avoid that kind of quicksand. Nobody is doomed if they stumble into it, but they are if they don't crawl out.

You figure it out, that good survival is not ultimate goal. If a person like to look a sea, from where this feeling comes from, from sea or person himselft ? if that same person are not at sea, would he ask himself to produce a feelling he knows he can - no, because we are still in stone age. You carry the whole chemistry factory, from which you will experience everything in your life, it has to goes always through your interpretation, everything you experienced and you will. Start to figure it out and learn how to use your ultimate machine and you will leave nihilism behind. Human always want to be smth. more and you can not stop it, we are just look for it in wrong direction, survive, survive, a lot of humanity has really good life, but everyone is almost half alive, because what now if you have good car, job ? nature has plan for 5 years project, to make sure we survive good, upgrade yourself.

The Paradox Of Happiness.

Everybody wants happiness. That's a given.

Happiness, however, comes at a price. We have to, well, work for it. One can't just lie in bed and decide to be happy and be happy.

Now, I recall an incident in my rather dull and uninteresting life where a child wanted a piece of cake. What this child did is what's key to the paradox. She hovered around the cake, asked "cakey" questions, smiled more than could be accounted for by the prevailing circumstances, and so on. The mother figured it out. Adults! "Do you want some cake?" she queried. Qui tacet consentire videtur! "Why didn't you say so?" the mother said in a half-reprimanding tone and pushed the cake towards the now gleeful child.

Why didn't you say so?

Let's all cut to the chase, shall we?

Hey, so this got way out of hand. I hope you'll forgive my brain spew.

I think I am slowly getting out of exactly the same mindset expressed in the OP. I searched through existentialism for a while, and found very honest ideas. For example, I found the closest thing I currently have to a formulation of the "meaning" of life. It has sharp edges still, but I trust you will know to avoid them, based on your morality.

The meaning of life is to regularly overcome resistance.

This basically comes from Bernard Reginster's "The Affirmation of Life" which I made a noise about in some other thread. It's a bit long and academic, since it's actually a Nietzsche interpretation by a harvard prof, so it might not be for everyone. Anyway, I should give a bit more than that.

We existentialists and nihilists are always thinking about the long game. Like, the really long, long game. Others say it's the journey that matters, but we scoff at that. Just like you scoffed at my meaning of life up there. We say:

What? Must I ever be on the way? Whirled by every wind, unsettled, driven about? O earth, you have become too round for me!

and

Too much has become clear to me: now it does not concern me anymore. Nothing lives any longer that I love, - how should I still love myself?

and

So I hated life, because what is done under the sun was grievous to me, for all is vanity and a striving after wind.

And we wrap it up with:

A good wind? Ah, he only who knows where he sails, knows what wind is good, and a fair wind for him.

Where do we sail, if not into oblivion? And surely any wind at all will do to get us there.

I'll admit that there's a bit of a gap for me here. Somehow, complete oblivion at the end is less of an issue for me know. Maybe because I've read enough smart people talking about how time isn't really all that fundamental. Maybe because I've realised that the fascination with infinities and the afterlife is really about other things, like justice. True infinity can't be a goal, anyway. You'll never reach it, otherwise it wouldn't be infinite.

So, how to pick a goal then? I am starting to go with the hardest road, with only one limitation. You should still feel that there is a chance of success. Do the hardest thing you think you can do. Or something close to that in difficulty. If it's too much, re-evaluate and go again. When there is no wind, use oars. And when it's blowing a gale, take a rest.

As for "giving a shit" about your surroundings: Remember it's not just the objects. For me it was about the people. Never forget about the people. Covid sucked for that, but thats kinda why I'm here.

Well this is already way too long, so I'll wrap up. Music is awesome. I play the viola, not very well. This year I joined a casual student orchestra, after like three years of not playing (until it got cancelled because of lockdown haha). My sight reading was really bad, I was the only person playing viola, and the first few times I came out wanting to quit. Instead, I've used the lockdown to practice and I'm going back next year. Why? Because it's something challenging that I might be able to do.

I'm not the master of my destiny, nor a slave to it. Yet in a weird way, I'm both.

Und da sitz’ ich in der grossen Runde, 
In der stillen kühlen Feierstunde, 
Und der Meister sagt zu Allen:
„Euer Werk hat mir gefallen;“
Und das liebe Mädchen sagt 
Allen eine gute Nacht.

---

First two excerpts are from Nietzsche "Thus Spoke Zarathustra" part 4 chapter 9 "The Shadow", second one is Ecclesiastes 2:17 (part of a longer, relevant section). Third one again "The Shadow". Last one is Wilhelm Müller, "Am Feierabend" put to music by Schubert as part of "Die Schöne Müllerin". I felt like including it, not sure why.

Everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die.

Everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die.

I want to fix my teeth but I don't want to go the dentist! :rofl: I just want to die!

Thank you to everybody who responded. Even if I didn't respond to you directly, I read your post. Thank you. :)

Usually the solution to this type nihilism involves seeing yourself more as part of a greater whole, that consequentially has a function or purpose in that larger whole.... Problem is we don't especially live in a culture right now that is conductive to this kind of solution, because any type of communitarian feeling be it religious or non-religious has essentially been hollowed out by individualism/capitalism/consumerism. — ChatteringMonkey

That perspective of being part of something larger than yourself is one of the only things that's helped. I'd like to have a positive impact on the lives of the people around me. It makes me feel a little better.

I wrote sometime ago: "There is X and there is Y, and the simple fact that neither one matters itself does not matter, so they proceed apace as if they did, and that is all that matters." — James Riley

I like that a lot.

I think you would benefit from reading Spinoza. He's very similar to Nietzsche in some ways, but in other ways closer to the Stoics or even Taoists. Even he came to the conclusion that all things that were impermanent were going to be unsatisfying. Spinoza's solution? Find happiness in something that is eternal, which is your power of understanding. These are some good posts that go into this sort of thing from a Spinozist angle: — Albero

I appreciate the recommendations and will be going through that list shortly. I've read most of Nietzsche's books, but I haven't read Spinoza.

Also, you should read up on Schopenhauer. — schopenhauer1

I'm familiar with Schopenhauer's work. He writes beautifully, and I subscribe to pretty much all of his ideas. I go back to him from time to time.

True meaning is what gives YOUR life meaning. It doesn't matter if your life won't extend to tomorrow, you're alive today right? You want to do something at the end of the day, fulfills you. To feel like you enjoyed existing that day. To feel like you could enjoy existing tomorrow if it comes. — Philosophim

You worded this very well, and I agree. Also, regarding your comment about people remembering my greatness, I don't believe that value is conferred by recognition. That quickly leads to absurdities. All that being said, I'm struggling to look away from the abyss and find my own meaning. I have made progress though.

Your philosophy reminds me of Viktor Frankl's

*******

I'm going to come back and continue replying to comments later. I appreciate everybody who has taken the time to respond.

What works for me is that instead of striving for a happy life, I live for a proper death. After all, Were all gonna kick the can someday. — john27

Can you elaborate some? Didn't Plato make a comment like that? Something along the lines of "All of life is just preparation for death."

I'm no Buddhist but I found these ideas helpful decades ago when I first grappled with meaninglessness. — Tom Storm

I'm not religious by any stretch, but I agree with many of the tenets of Buddhism (definitely the points you mentioned).

The most effective way to deal with the absurdity of reality, that I have found, is to shrug my shoulders, and make sure I get enough sleep. Stay calm and lucid. — _db

That basically describes me. Also, in recognition of this context of absurdity, I'm indifferent when faced with most risks.

Happiness, however, comes at a price. We have to, well, work for it. One can't just lie in bed and decide to be happy and be happy. — TheMadFool

Regarding the list that I mentioned earlier, the list of things that contributed to my unhappiness, some of the items have been more difficult to cross off than others. The most difficult probably would have to be one of the more recent items: correcting my short stature. I worked 80-hour weeks and had 4 surgeries to correct my proportions and increase my height. This was, as you could imagine, agonizing. Anyway, my only point is that I am putting in the work.

The meaning of life is to regularly overcome resistance. — the affirmation of strife

This feels like stoicism. I regularly practice a lot of stoic philosophies.

Do the hardest thing you think you can do. — the affirmation of strife

This was my life "before." I had a foreign-language vocabulary in the neighborhood of 10,000 words, played the piano and composed a little, was a proficient mnemonist, and planned to double major in physics and math (My professors said I had the aptitude for it.).

In hindsight this was all a distraction. There were philosophical problems that I didn't want to address. I was too busy filling my life with meaning to consider meaninglessness.



From Bring Me The Horizon, right? Hospital For Souls? That's a great song!

Regarding the list that I mentioned earlier, the list of things that contributed to my unhappiness, some of the items have been more difficult to cross off than others. The most difficult probably would have to be one of the more recent items: correcting my short stature. I worked 80-hour weeks and had 4 surgeries to correct my proportions and increase my height. This was, as you could imagine, agonizing. Anyway, my only point is that I am putting in the work. — Nicholas Mihaila

Me too! Good luck!

I looked through all the responses but didn't see this. It seems obvious. Maybe I missed it. It seems like you are depressed. That's not a philosophical problem, it's a psychological, maybe physical, one. Have you talked to a therapist? If not, it's worth a try. It helped me.

Thank you! And to you too! I already completed the surgeries. I'm currently in the recovery process. I'm still in pain but it's manageable and my mobility is improving.



I certainly am depressed, but I believe it's an effect and not a cause. I'm currently taking medication and that's been the only way I've been able to function. Without it I would be jobless and in a far worse position. I've tried therapy, but it hasn't helped. I'll likely try again in the future though.

Thank you! And to you too! I already completed the surgeries. I'm currently in the recovery process. I'm still in pain but it's manageable and my mobility is improving. — Nicholas Mihaila

:up: :flower:

I certainly am depressed, but I believe it's an effect and not a cause. I'm currently taking medication and that's been the only way I've been able to function. Without it I would be jobless and in a far worse position. I've tried therapy, but it hasn't helped. I'll likely try again in the future though. — Nicholas Mihaila

There are people here on the forum who have found their way through philosophy. I always have found their experiences moving and inspiring, although it is not my way.