• Jack Cummins
    5.3k
    I have loved music for most of my life and, this is probably true of most people, and I have never learned to play and instrument, so this thread is coming from the angle of appreciation. It is based on a book I have been reading, called 'This is Your Brain on Music: Understanding a Human Obsession', by Daniel Levithin(2006). The author is a neuroscientist and has been a record producer. He explores how music is linked to the processes in the brain and mental states, including emotions.

    He looks at what music is and why individuals like specific music. He says,
    '...it is helpful to examine what music is made of. What are the fundamental building blocks of music?...The basic elements of any sound are loudness, pitch, contour, duration (or rhythm), tempo, timbre, spatial location, and reverberation. Our brains organize these fundamental perceptual attributes into higher-level concepts_ just as a painter arranges lines into forms_ and these include meter, harmony, and melody. When we listen to music, we are actually perceiving multiple attributes or '"dimensions".
    This objective component of music is important.

    However, he speaks of the individual and unique aspects of development of musical understanding in the brain, in terms of the idea of neuroplasticity. In particular, he suggests that it is much more difficult to acquire new music taste later in life, explaining the way in which people often stop seeking new music. He also states that at 'a deeper level, the emotions we experience in response to music involve structures deep in the the primitive, reptilian regions of the cerebellar vermis, and the amygdala_the heart of emotional processing in the cortex'.

    I found these ideas useful for thinking about, including where music takes us to into certain states of consciousness. For example, if many people are listening to Pink Floyd are they all perceiving a certain objective or intersubjective reality? Of course, the development of musical taste is formed in childhood. Personally, I grew up listening to pop and rock, and have difficulty relating to classical music and opera. However, I developed a strong liking for alternative genres, including indie and metal while a student, and these form strong emotional associations.

    I am writing this with a view to readers thinking and reflecting on where music takes them, and asking why? I am also questioning to what extent the music listened to can affect and have a profound effect on mental states and emotions?
  • Kenosha Kid
    3.2k
    Musical language is built around metaphor. A note can be "sharp" or "flat". A chord can be "crunchy" or "spicy". A harmony can be "warm" or "cold". A percussive element can be "aggressive". Pioneers figure out what can be done, then we name things according to how they make us feel because music has no natural descriptive language. So the answer to the question:

    where music takes them, and... whyJack Cummins

    is "depends on how the music has been designed" (with our without comprehension). Why does a Picardy third make me feel upbeat and optimistic...? I don't really know. I could point out that minor scales feel sad, major chords feel happy, that playing A major at the end of a piece in A minor is surprising (that dopamine hit again), but that well-considered chord progressions also make it seem natural.

    I could also point at the natural harmonics of notes, how the biggest contributors spell out the major scale, how playing the major scale but starting on the 6th creates a complimentary minor scale using the same notes, how playing in that minor scale will therefore always make me feel away from home because ultimately I still feel like it should all resolve to the tonic of that major scale (e.g. C from A minor) but at the same time the minor scale itself is so devoid of tension it never feels like I should have to resolve anywhere, making me feel distant but whole... But I still don't really know why.
  • Jack Cummins
    5.3k

    In many ways, I agree that so much of thinking is built around metaphors and the whole symbolic levels of reality. However, when I was reading the book I referred to , I was wondering about the possibility of objective realities lying behind the arts and music. This may be about archetypal aspects of existence or sounds, but I am left wondering about the whole spectrum of objectivity and subjectivity, and it does seem that the physical world is such an important aspect of this , including shared meanings and experiences of sound and music.
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    I'm mostly interested in melody and harmony which, to my reckoning, is more subjective than objective notwithstanding the fact that these aspects of music seem universal in re structure/pattern.

    Why should one note followed by another speicific note be, well, pleasing to the ear? I'm, luckily or not, not a musician although I tried hard - spent almost 5 years trying to learn the guitar with nothing to show for it - so am not able to give you the specifics. All I know is that for every note there's another that's a perfect match; it gives us the same feeling that some ardent lovers describe as that of "being made for each other."

    It would be really fascinating if there's an objective reason why melody & harmony, in a way, "make sense" to our ears/brains/hearts. I feel it's more of a heart thing but that's going back to a time before neuroscience. Sounds like a bad idea but, let's be honest - look at history, do you see any good ideas?

    Musical melody and harmony then must be the acoustic version of logic - a set of notes (horizontally - melody; vertically - harmony) seems to "make sense" (I repeat myself but treat this as a refrain and we should be alright).


    I wonder if what women do with colors is something similar - visual logic. They always ask "does this :point: skirt go with this :point: top?" Some color combinations don't "make sense" (refrain) do they?

    Perhaps it's a case of failure to appreciate the rationale/logic behind some notes/color combination and not that such arrangements don't "make sense" (refrain). Thus I made it a point to mention that subjectivity may have a role in all this.

    That's all I have for now. Stay tuned for more. That's meant in an iffy way.
  • Kenosha Kid
    3.2k
    I was wondering about the possibility of objective realities lying behind the arts and music.Jack Cummins

    I'm guessing not the kind like

    the natural harmonics of notes, how the biggest contributors spell out the major scale, how playing the major scale but starting on the 6th creates a complimentary minor scale using the same notesKenosha Kid

    though, or the objective musical landscapes in and of themselves.

    shared meanings and experiences of sound and music.Jack Cummins

    One of the interesting things about music is that how it affects us is very much cultural. The Western tradition will always sound "right" to Western ears, Eastern traditions sound "right" to Eastern ears. Since the ancient Greeks, people have been trying to formalise an objective theory of music. In our more recent, more postmodern times we recognise that how we absorb music, including the language we use to describe it, is very much prejudiced by the music we've grown up surrounded by.

    The jazz bassist and YouTuber Adam Neely has done some really insightful videos on this topic.
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    Smoking is the best good idea of all time! :grin:
  • Jack Cummins
    5.3k

    Actually, I have only ever smoked when 'dope ' has been part of the mixture rather than just tobacco. But, coming back to music, I do wonder about wider aspects of inter subjectivity, such as I felt the music of Jim Morrison to be bound up with the philosophy of Nietzsche.

    I guess that I am really asking about the nature of metaphysical realities which may be underlying our appreciation of music. That is probably the aspect of this which makes it an aspect of philosophy, especially the relationship between subjective experience of sound and music, or anything which may be objective beyond this.
  • 180 Proof
    15.3k
    Huge topic! Almost too much to say about it, Jack, I'll have to give it some thought and get back to you. The following quote for now:
    “Blues music is an aesthetic device of confrontation and improvisation, an existential device or vehicle for coping with the ever-changing fortunes of human existence, in a word, entropy, the tendency of everything to become formless. Which is also to say that such music is a device for confronting and acknowledging the harsh fact that the human situation . . . is always awesome and all too often awful . . . But on the other hand, there is the frame of acceptance of the obvious fact that life is always a struggle against destructive forces.” ~Albert Murray180 Proof
    Our brains ('survival engines' first and foremost, ergo so many cognitive biases) seek patterns and confabulate patterns when they are lacking – horror vacui (re: "formlessness", noise, silence, darkness, sleep, arbitrary violence, etc). Anyway, more thoughts to come.
  • Jack Cummins
    5.3k

    The Eastern and Western approaches are interesting and may have implications for how music is understood or appreciated. But, even in our culture I wonder about binaries and divisions. It may be that music is understood and appreciated differently from the right and left hemispheres, and within cultures this is balanced so differently and it may impact on music appreciation.
  • Jack Cummins
    5.3k

    Yes, it is a big topic and I am sure that you appreciate this as I know that you find music to be such an important aspect of life. I just know that music has such profound importance on my mental state, so when I came across the book I thought it was worth raising as an aspect of philosophy and it will be interesting to see what it raises here. I think that some people may consider music as an aspect of qualia, but I think that it is also an important aspect of phenomenology.
  • 180 Proof
    15.3k
    I guess that I am really asking about the nature of metaphysical realities which may be underlying our appreciation of music.Jack Cummins
    This is integral to Schopenhauer's WWR. And Nietzsche's The Birth of Tragedy Out of the Spirit of Music (though not so much The Case Against Wagner). Also, George Steiner's Real Presences, etc (but avoid Adorno on music). And Albert Murray, who I quote above, his essay collection Stomping the Blues.
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k


    I don't know what else to say except this: Record all the sounds humans make, that includes sounds made by machines, and see if they they form a melody or a harmony. If they do, we're good - nothing that musical could have anything wrong with it - and if they don't we might have to brace ourselves for rough times ahead - nothing that discordant could bode well for us. The ears may tell us more about ourselves and nature, their combined future, than the eyes. In fact I've seen & heard a few videos doing just that - it looks like we're in good shape. F**k global warming and nuclear winters and AI takeovers. Nature is fine! Just listen to the music playing all around you!
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    dopeJack Cummins

    Shiva is most pleased. He would very much like to grant you a boon. :smile:
  • Jack Cummins
    5.3k

    I read more about Schopenhauer's ideas recently and I am trying to get hold of his writings. Personally, I do link Nietzsche's ideas with those of Jim Morrison and the Doors, but I am not sure that the logic of this is entirely correct. It may be my own connection, although I know that Jim was inspired by Nietzsche and this is so evident in Jim's lyrics, especially in 'An American Prayer' poetry/ album.
  • Jack Cummins
    5.3k

    Sound may have such power at a subliminal level. I have even come across the idea that sound can kill. Hopefully, it does not go that far, but I stopped going to metal and punk live events because I did begin to think that it was affecting my hearing, and I think that I do have some difficulty hearing higher pitch sounds.
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    Sound may have such power at a subliminal level. I have even come across the idea that sound can kill. Hopefully, it does not go that far, but I stopped going to metal and punk live events because I did begin to think that it was affecting my hearing, and I think that I do have some difficulty hearing higher pitch sounds.Jack Cummins

    The tongue like a sharp knife, kills without drawing blood. — Fake Buddha quote

    When a bomb detonates, it's the blast wave (sound) that blows things & people to bits.

    Yep, sonic killings do occur and are well-documented.
  • 180 Proof
    15.3k
    Mr. Mojo was a poet not a musician and Freddy was a poet, composer, philologist & philosopher. I feel the "link" too, but have learned far more from Freddy about music for music's sake than I have from Mr. Mojo for whom music was just a (oh yes, Dionysian!) means to some other end.
  • Jack Cummins
    5.3k

    I am inclined to wonder how much words and music are interrelated on some level, especially in poetry. Many of those who wrote have combined the two, such as Leonard Cohen. Language and singing are both important of human utterances and what is heard. Even reading words aloud may be such a different experience of the sound of the human voice.
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    I guess that I am really asking about the nature of metaphysical realities which may be underlying our appreciation of music.Jack Cummins

    String Theory! You might've already guessed. Unfortunately or not, all I know about it is that we have a Theory of Everything when we consider nature as made up of tiny vibrating strings. This would be music to Pythagoras' ears. The universe is a grand symphony.
  • Jack Cummins
    5.3k

    I wonder what the worst possible sound can be. The worst, from my point of view, is jarring sounds in the night, which prevent sleeping. But, some people may even be afraid of silence itself. Even though I love music of such varied nature, I think that silence can be so wonderful, as opposed to the most interfering and disruptive aspects of noise. Electric drills and vacuum cleaners may be the worst forms of 'music'. I also wonder about aspects of music in the outer world and in the imagination, including the idea of the 'third ear'.
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    Youtube has the info you seek.

    third earJack Cummins

    :cool:

    If you ask me, the worst possible sound is silence. Predators have evolved stealth technology - they're, among other things, acoustically "invisible".
  • unenlightened
    9.2k
    There is much difficulty in separating nature and nurture. Here for example is a traditional tune in the melodic minor, normally associated with melancholy, set to a very jolly Mayday song.



    We are likewise so en-cultured in the tempered scales, that natural harmonics sound a bit off in many circumstances
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    Cicada mating calls. Annoying as hell to us but very sexy to female cicadas. Go figure!
  • Jack Cummins
    5.3k

    I wonder how much musical taste is nature or nurture. So far, in this thread I may have pointed to what is listened to in music in early childhood as being extremely important. However, as sound and meaning are so embedded in physical nature it may be that a biological aspect is important and it may that music has a biological component within human nature.
  • Jack Cummins
    5.3k

    Vibrations may be important in music, as suggested in the The Beach Boys' song, 'Good Vibrations', and I hardly dare think what the bad vibrations are.... However, I think that I am probably familiar with them. I don't like to label or be opposed to any kind of music, I do wonder if some music is best avoided in some circumstances. It may be about tuning into the minds of people who made the music

    I am very far from being some kind of moral absolutist, but I do have questions about what music may be helpful ot not. However, it so complex and I have my days in which I think that Nirvana were so wonderful. So, it may not about how far Jim Morrison and Kurt Cobain can take us, and at what point is enough, in certain directions of experience and thinking. Also, life circumstances come into play, and how music is interpreted.
  • Tom Storm
    9.1k
    I wonder how much musical taste is nature or nurture.Jack Cummins

    Pretty sure we are socialised into Western musical taste. Seems likely to me that the music we know would just be a series of sounds - wails, booms, thumps, moans, whoops and whirrs to the uninitiated. It's a type of language isn't it? Personally I have never much enjoyed rock or pop music - for the most part I find it ugly and dull - so personal taste clearly plays a roll.

    I remember listing to Mozart's Eine Kleine Nachtmusik for the first time around the age of 6. I found it hilarious and remember hearing it as a series of amusing sound effects, without a narrative or melody.

    Having sat in the bush listening to bird song, it's pretty clear that sound can take us places (it doesn't have to be music). Think of the meditative effect of falling rain, or the sound of a waterfall, or an old steam train.
  • Jack Cummins
    5.3k

    My own basic intuition is that music may open up the imagination, to so much more possible ways of thinking and perceiving reality. Obviously, it is important that it be grounded in reality. Sound may encompass this whole spectrum, in its ability to transform experience and guide imagination.
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    tuning into the minds of people who made the musicJack Cummins

    Some music genres don't do anything for me. I have no clue why? Perhaps it doesn't resonate with me at any level for a good reason. This might be relevant to psychology as in it reveals something about a person; for one, his/her mindset.

    I would love it if I enjoyed the whole spectrum that modern and classical music affords. I think fine appreciation of music comes with years of actualy study which I haven't done. Too bad. Can't have it all I guess.
  • Jack Cummins
    5.3k

    It is hard to even know why some music makes sense to us and some doesn't. A friend bought me a classical compilation a few years ago, with a hope that it would enable me to access that kind of music. There is so much which goes beyond rationality with music taste and what makes sense to each of us. I remember a summer a few years ago when I was so into Daft Punk's ' Get Lucky', and the song featuring Pharrell Williams, 'Blurred Lines' and it so much seems to go beyond logic. Music seems to go beyond rationality, to a different space within human consciousness and emotions.
  • 180 Proof
    15.3k
    There is so much which goes beyond rationality ...Jack Cummins
    Clarify, if you will, what you mean by "rationality" in this context.
  • Jack Cummins
    5.3k

    I suppose what I mean by rationality in this context is how I would usually justify music taste, such as how I would argue that the music and lyrics in ' The Joshua Tree' album make it stand out, and this is on a conceptual basis. With the music of Pharrell Williams, which was so commercial, it seemed to be a bit different, but I do think he is a great artist and it may be about emotions and touching on higher states of consciousness in that way. In many ways, his music is 'pop's but it seems to be about reaching 'for the stars' as the lyrics say in The Daft Punk track, and the song seems to be able to access that particular state of consciousness.
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