• Bartricks
    6k
    Some say that we have a change when a thing has a property at one time that it does not have at another. However, that either doesn’t tell us what change in itself is - it just tells us when we typically recognize there to have been a change - or it is a circular and so tells us nothing. For it appeals to a change in temporal properties. When a thing goes from being present to being past, it has already changed – changed from being present to being past. So if we are trying to get a handle on what change itself is, we can’t appeal to another change as then we are trying to explain change with change, which gets us nowhere.

    So what, then, is change in itself? Well, it seems to me that a good place to start is to think about how we detect it (even though it is an egregious mistake to confuse one's detection of something with the thing itself).

    I suggest that we first detect change by way of sensation. For after all, it can seem to us that something has changed even when we cannot identify 'what' has changed. Just as, by analogy, we can sometimes hear something, yet not know what is producing the sound, or feel the texture of something yet not know what was producing it in us, or smell something yet not be able to locate the source of the smell. And of course, we can also get the impression a change has occurred when no change has occurred. This too lends weight to sensationalism about how we detect change, for our sensation of change does not itself constitute the change it is a sensation of, and thus it is to be expected that we may sometimes have the sensation in the absence of any change.

    Typically anyway, we have the sensation of change and then notice what seems to have caused that sensation in us, and identify that as ‘the change’, in much the same way as we might call something that caused us pain, ‘painful’, or something that caused a loud noise 'noisy' or whatever. So we identify the change with what seemed to us to cause in us the change sensation.

    If this is correct, then does this tell us anything about what change itself is?

    I think so, thanks to a simple argument of George Berkeley’s. Sensations, argues Berkeley, give us insight into reality by resembling parts of it. That is, there must be some resemblance between our sensations of reality and reality itself, else our sensations will simply not qualify as being ‘of’ reality at all.

    If that is correct, then the sensation of change must resemble actual change, else it would not be ‘of’ change at all.

    Next step: sensations can resemble sensations and nothing else. Sights resemble sights, sounds resemble sounds, smells resemble smells and so on. Thus, as the sensation of change resembles actual change, and a sensation can only resemble another sensation, change itself can now be concluded to be made of a sensation.

    Next step: sensations can exist in minds and nowhere else. Their essence is to be sensed (as Berkeley put it “Their esse is percipi”).

    But the changes that our sensations of change give us insight into exist outside of our minds. Indeed, there are ‘the’ actual changes, and then there are our sensations of change (as we all recognize, for we recognize that the fact it seemed to us that a change occurred is not decisive evidence that one did occur). So it seems that the actual changes that our sensations give us insight into are unitary, indeed they are part of the unity we call ‘external reality’ or (misleadingly) the ‘objective world’. (By saying they are unitary, I do not mean there is just one change; I mean rather that there are 'the changes' that occur in the unitary external world).

    From this it follows that change itself is the sensation of a single mind. That which has caused the sensation in question can then be identified with that which has changed, just as that which has caused an auditory sensation is that which was heard.
  • Gnomon
    3.8k
    Some say that we have a change when a thing has a property at one time that it does not have at another. However, that either doesn’t tell us what change in itself is - it just tells us when we typically recognize there to have been a change - or it is a circular and so tells us nothing. For it appeals to a change in temporal properties.Bartricks
    Change is the effect of a Cause. And we detect Change in the same way know Meaning ; by measuring the Difference in form : Information. By comparing prior Form to latter Form we infer the Cause of the Change. And my name for the cause of all change in the world is EnFormAction, which is analogous to Energy. So, Change is Transformation. That may not answer your question, but it may give you something to think about. :smile:

    What is EnFormAction? :
    http://bothandblog2.enformationism.info/page29.html
  • Joshs
    5.7k
    Change is the effect of a Cause.Gnomon

    Is everything we need to know about an effect already present in the cause?
  • Banno
    25k
    Some say that we have a change when a thing has a property at one time that it does not have at another.Bartricks

    Just drop the temporal bias and this will work. It's properties that change.

    We talk of unnoticed changes. How could these be, if change relies on sensation?
  • Gnomon
    3.8k
    Is everything we need to know about an effect already present in the cause?Joshs
    In theory, that may be the case. But in reality, there may be multiple causes for a single effect. In my information-based personal paradigm, I call the power of causation "EnFormAction". It's the cause of all changes in the world, both physical and mental. That general power to cause change (to enform) is also the source of all meaning (need to know) for our bodies and minds. It's analogous to both Energy and Willpower. Anything else you need to know? :smile:

    The EnFormAction Hypothesis :
    http://bothandblog3.enformationism.info/page23.html
  • Cheshire
    1.1k
    So what, then, is change in itself? Well, it seems to me that a good place to start is to think about how we detect it (even though it is an egregious mistake to confuse one's detection of something with the thing itself).Bartricks

    On grandest scale change is the norm. It's easier to argue everything is in some state of flux on some scale. Nothing is truly static. But, change in this context is a difference in measurements attributable to the state of affairs.

    Or it's the subtext to greasing yet another slide into a creationist agenda.
  • Bartricks
    6k
    On grandest scale change is the norm.Cheshire

    That's not a view about what change 'is'. It's a view about how widespread it is. If I ask "what is bread?" and one answers "bread is everywhere", then one has not answered my question.

    Or it's the subtext to greasing yet another slide into a creationist agenda.Cheshire

    There you simply express a prejudice: you believe any analysis is false that implies the existence of a god, yes? Why?
  • Bartricks
    6k
    That's not true - one can have a cause and effect relation without there being any change.

    But even if that's incorrect and change is what causes create, that isn't a view about what change 'is', but rather a view about what creates change.
  • Daniel
    458


    These are some thoughts that as you will see are not very well constructed but might help you look at change from a different point of view, maybe.

    Change is some sort of natural law (or the result of) which prevents that the probability of a point in space contains x, where x is anything that can be contained by a point in space, be always 1. That is, there is not a point in space that will always contain x. Change makes sure this never happens. Change is a natural variation in the probability that a point in space contains x (this would mean that the probability is changing - leads to nothing). I ask myself why a point in space cannot always have the same properties (why a point in space cannot contain x forever)? Change results from the incapacity of a point in space containing x forever. That a point in space cannot contain x forever leads to change; that the probability of a point in space containing x cannot be always 1 (because there is something preventing this) leads to change... why a point in space cannot contain x forever?
  • Cheshire
    1.1k
    There you simply express a prejudice: you believe any analysis is false that implies the existence of a god, yes? Why?Bartricks

    I actually don't; just skeptical that Bartricks is interested in change and not undermining evolution. If I called it wrong then it saves the disappointment of having unintentionally entered a discussion about creationism.
  • Bartricks
    6k
    My motives - which are pure - do not matter. You should assess a case on it's own merits, not concern yourself with the arguer's agenda.
  • Bartricks
    6k
    I am not sure I follow. If the law describes a change, then change is being invoked, not analysed. If the law itself changes, the same applies.

    The big mistake, it seems to me, is that most of those who seek to analyse change, simply describe the conditions under which one has a change, but do not say what change itself is.

    What I have done is squarely address the question and have provided an argument leading to the conclusion that change is an external sensation.

    To block my case one would need to challenge one of the premises that got me to that conclusion
  • Cheshire
    1.1k
    Generally, I'd agree. But, in the case of creationism, where the supporters won't even acknowledge their position falls under the heading in fear of automatic dismissal, I can make an exception. Glad it's not the case. As you say.
  • Bartricks
    6k
    How is there an exception? Either an argument is sound, or it is not. At no point do the motives of the arguer matter.

    So, what's wrong with the argument I made?
  • Cheshire
    1.1k
    How is there an exception? Either an argument is sound, or it is not. At no point do the motives matter.Bartricks
    I'm going off pure pattern recognition. Change is an interesting topic and fertile ground for some new ideas I imagine. But, when it's creationism being served under a guise I end up sifting through 300+ posts to find a position I wouldn't have invested in refuting. If I'm wrong, then there is no concern. Motives matter in the sense a life is finite.
  • Cheshire
    1.1k
    That's not a view about what change 'is'.Bartricks

    It also wasn't a fair representation of my statement; per creationist tactics.
  • khaled
    3.5k
    sensations can resemble sensations and nothing else.Bartricks

    Evidence? Specifically the “and nothing else” bit, where did you get that?
    Sights resemble sights, sounds resemble sounds, smells resemble smells and so onBartricks

    This doesn’t mean sights resemble sights and nothing else. Same with smell and sound.
  • Bartricks
    6k
    You don't seem to grasp the point.
  • Bartricks
    6k
    What is like a sensation, but not one?
  • khaled
    3.5k
    Reality potentially. Depends on whether reality is a sensation or not. In order to say that sensations represent sensations and only sensations, given that sensations represent reality, you must assume that reality is a sensation. You haven’t derived that fact, it was necessary for your second premise. Your conclusion is assumed in your second premise. I’m sure you know what that means.

    The problem with your proof is the same as the problem here:

    Barkley argued that cats resemble X. Assume that’s true.

    Cats resemble cats and only cats.

    Therefore X are cats.

    The validity depends on what X is, let’s assume “X” is “dogs”. Then the conclusion is clearly false, so where was the error? Either premise 1 or 2 is wrong. Let’s trust Barkley for now. So premise 2 is wrong, cats must not resemble cats and only cats given that cats resemble dogs. That or premise 1 is wrong and cats don’t resemble dogs.

    So this type of argument doesn't work for any X. What makes you think reality is such an X that it works?
  • khaled
    3.5k
    From this it follows that change itself is the sensation of a single mind.Bartricks

    And this doesn't follow either. Why single? Why not a coalition of minds?

    If we sense changes and changes are sensations, then are we "sensing sensations"? What does that even mean? And the sensations that we're sensing, what's the source of those? Other sensations?(infinite regress)
  • Cheshire
    1.1k
    ↪Cheshire You don't seem to grasp the pointBartricks

    I question whether the point has been extended. At this point you could replace the word 'change' with anything from human experience and not lose informative content. The arguments contradictory already anyway. At first we can't compare like things to make a determination about them;
    we can’t appeal to another change as then we are trying to explain change with changeBartricks
    But, we can generalize change to sensation and make any number of statements? What is the motivation for this slight of hand?
  • Gnomon
    3.8k
    ↪Gnomon
    That's not true - one can have a cause and effect relation without there being any change.
    Bartricks
    If so, it's not a causal relationship, but an inert (no change) relationship? For example, you might have a static geometric or positional relationship, without any change in either factor. :chin:
  • Alkis Piskas
    2.1k

    Some say that we have a change when a thing has a property at one time that it does not have at another.Bartricks
    This is certainly a very restrictive definition -- it doesn't cover the subject of change.
    Am\nyway, why do you care about what "some say"? There are some others who also "say" :smile: Then, you should not get into cyclic definitions. This is the job of bad dictionaries! :grin:

    In simple terms, change is "An act or process through which something becomes different" (Oxford LEXICO)

    I like this because it's a minimal definition and covers everything. Even the different position an electron can occupy around the nucleus of an atom from one moment to another.

    Heraclitus described "change" in a superb way with his "Everything flows" and "You cannot step in the same river twice". What else should one need to understand change?

    Change is movement. We can equally say that "change is movement in space" and "movement is change in space". This makes them synonyms, at least to that respect. Both are dynamic, even if we use the word "change" also as something static. Actually, there's no static change. Change is something continuous. A continuous movement. The water in a river that flows. Electrons in atoms that revolve around the nucleus of atoms.

    I suggest that we first detect change by way of sensation.Bartricks
    OK, but I don't think that seeing change via sensation helps us a lot. It's a restrictive way of identifying change. OK, we can "feel" change. Then what?

    I see that from here on you are talking about the perception of change. And how we (through our mind) get conscious and interpret change. OK, but isn't it in the same way that we perceive anything in the physical universe? So, the sensation/perception of change doesn’t really gives us --or at least, adds-- any insight on change.

    Change takes place everywhere and all the time. We are influenced by it continuously. We can perceive it, think about it,, calculate it, co-act with it, use it, etc., in all sorts of ways.
  • Bartricks
    6k
    In simple terms, change is "An act or process through which something becomes different" (Oxford LEXICO)Alkis Piskas

    That is circular as well. For what does 'becomes different' mean if not 'changes'?

    The question is not 'when do we have a change?', but 'what 'is' change?'

    Heraclitus described "change" in a superb way with his "Everything flows" and "You cannot step in the same river twice". What else should one need to understand change?Alkis Piskas

    Once more, he is simply saying that everything changes, not telling us what change itself is. "What is change?" "Change is everywhere" is not an answer.

    Change is movement.Alkis Piskas

    That's circular. For a thing moves when it changes location.

    I made a case for change being a sensation. My case was that we have a sensation of change - that is, we are aware of change by means of a sensation. And as a sensation has to resemble that of which it gives us some awareness, we can conclude that change itself resembles our sensation of change. And as a sensation resembles another sensation and nothing else, change itself can now be concluded to be a sensation, albeit one that is not borne by our own minds, but some other mind.

    OK, but isn't it in the same way that we perceive anything in the physical universe? So, the sensation/perception of change doesn’t really gives us --or at least, adds-- any insight on change.Alkis Piskas

    How does that follow? One can't refute an argument by simply noting that it applies to other things. We are aware of the sensible world via our sensations - and change is a feature of it - and so the sensible world itself must resemble our sensations of it (for they would not be 'of' it otherwise). And thus the sensible world must itself be made of sensations.

    I don't see a problem, just an extension of the same argument. Indeed, that argument - the argument that the sensible world is made of the sensations of an external mind - is well known and was made by George Berkeley. I am simply taking that argument and showing how it casts light on other features of reality - such as change.
  • Bartricks
    6k
    No, you can have causation without change. An example (due, I think, to Kant): imagine a ball on a cushion and imagine that both have existed for eternity. Now, the indentation on the cushion is being caused by the ball, even though there was never a time when the ball was not on the cushion.

    Anyway, do not be distracted by that example. For this thread is about change, not causation. And as I have pointed out, even if causes create changes - and they do not necessarily do so - that would not tell us what change itself is. If I ask what a car is, and you tell me that factories create them, you have not told me what a car is.
  • Bartricks
    6k
    No, you are dismissing an argument on the basis of an assumption you have made about the arguer. That's just silly. I don't have an agenda, but even if I did, it wouldn't alter the soundness of my case.
  • Cheshire
    1.1k
    There is no argument to dismiss. You've put forward that change is a part of the human experience for the same reason other things are part of the human experience. In summary; change is a sensation therefore all the implications of being a sensation apply to change. End summary.
  • Bartricks
    6k
    Reality potentially. Depends on whether reality is a sensation or not. In order to say that sensations represent sensations and only sensations, given that sensations represent reality, you must assume that reality is a sensation.khaled

    Question begging.

    If you think that there is something that resembles a sensation, yet is not one, provide an example. Note, there is no question that sensations do resemble sensations. If you think that there is something else - something that we have no reason to think is itself a sensation - that a sensation can resemble, simply provide an example. (You will find yourself in difficulties, for anything you suggest will have to in some way 'look' or 'feel' or 'smell' or 'taste' or 'sound' like the sensation you are comparing it to, and so will itself be something we are aware of via sensation, and thus it looks like you are doomed to beg the question).

    Your conclusion is assumed in your second premise. I’m sure you know what that means.khaled

    You're one of those people who thinks that all valid arguments beg the question. Tedious. Learn to argue properly.

    The problem with your proof is the same as the problem here:

    Barkley argued that cats resemble X. Assume that’s true.

    Cats resemble cats and only cats.

    Therefore X are cats.

    The validity depends on what X is, let’s assume “X” is “dogs”. Then the conclusion is clearly false, so where was the error? Either premise 1 or 2 is wrong. Let’s trust Barkley for now. So premise 2 is wrong, cats must not resemble cats and only cats given that cats resemble dogs. That or premise 1 is wrong and cats don’t resemble dogs.

    So this type of argument doesn't work for any X. What makes you think reality is such an X that it works?
    khaled

    What on earth are you on about? First, it is 'Berkeley' not 'Barkley' (it's pronounced Barkley, but spelt 'Berkeley').

    Berkeley argued that sensations resemble sensations and nothing else. Now, if that's true, then it follows that a sensation of X, is a sensation of a sensation.

    ↪Bartricks
    From this it follows that change itself is the sensation of a single mind.
    — Bartricks

    And this doesn't follow either. Why single? Why not a coalition of minds?

    If we sense changes and changes are sensations, then are we "sensing sensations"? What does that even mean? And the sensations that we're sensing, what's the source of those? Other sensations?(infinite regress)
    khaled

    I explained why it is a single mind.

    And yes, sensations are 'of' sensations, as sensations can only resemble other sensations. Why do you ask 'what does that even mean?'. It means what it means: it means that sensations are of sensations.

    What's hard to understand is how a sensation could be 'of' anything else.

    As for the 'waht's the source of those' question - er, a mind. You don't seem to be following the argument.
  • Bartricks
    6k
    There is no argument to dismiss.Cheshire

    Yes there is. I suspect that, like most people here, you don't know an argument from your elbow. Here is the argument:

    1. There is a sensation of change
    2. A sensation can only resemble another sensation (and so if a sensation is 'of' something, then what it is of is itself a sensation)
    3. Therefore, change is a sensation.
  • Gnomon
    3.8k
    Anyway, do not be distracted by that example. For this thread is about change, not causationBartricks
    Your example is quite a stretch, so it is not much of a distraction -- more like a paradox or riddle. :joke:
    Note -- see Koan below

    Since you want to separate Causation from its Effect (Change), how would you define a "Cause", or an "Effect" without reference to the other? If a cause makes no difference (change) what does it do? :cool:

    Causation : the relationship between cause and effect; causality.
    Effect : 1. a change which is a result or consequence of an action or other cause.

    PS___Koan : If Aristotle's First Cause (principle of causation) had existed forever, without any real world effect, was it really a cause?
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