That is an odd conception of free will you have going there. I have coffee every morning because I like coffee in the morning, but I could have tea; I have the freedom to change, but I do not. If God is good then he chooses not to do evil, but that doesn't make him unfree. — unenlightened
why couldn't humans be the same way? — Marchesk
Only if God is not real. — aletheist
God can be real but inaccessible. — unenlightened
I will suggest that experience is the only guide, and experience is only of creation. — unenlightened
In which case one might well ascertain that God likes increasing chaos, beings that eat each other and widespread suffering. In which case that must be good. — unenlightened
Of course, many theists also subscribe to revealed theology, and thus contend that it is possible to experience God directly. — aletheist
As should be clear by now, the meaning/definition of "good" is "whatever is consistent with God's nature," — aletheist
which accords with saying that "we ascertain what God is like and then define 'good' accordingly."
Evil is behaving selfishly, harming others, manipulating them, exploiting them, discriminating against them, causing them to suffer, etc. — Marchesk
Are you really suggesting that human beings can't tell good from bad, in general? Do we not grow up being told the difference, and enforcing the difference amongst ourselves, and teaching our kids likewise? — Marchesk
Maybe the problem is not with these religious notions about God, but rather involves our how our conception of what's good is possible. The term 'good' losses its meaning without the concept/experience of 'evil', they co-implicate each other. Imagine that you were in a world where only good could possibly happen, if so then what's good would be the way things are, it would have no differential — Cavacava
As should be clear by now, the meaning/definition of "good" is "whatever is consistent with God's nature," which accords with saying that "we ascertain what God is like and then define 'good' accordingly." — aletheist
Which suits me just fine because my intuition has fairly clear and conventional ideas about what is good, and if God has other ideas, then we are on opposing sides. — unenlightened
In the traditional Christian conception of good, such things are not evil. — Metaphysician Undercover
I don't think theologians define "good" as what's consistent with God's nature, rather it is defined as what's consistent with God's will. — Metaphysician Undercover
Failing to determine the best choice does not make one's choice evil, as Marchesk seems to be arguing. — Metaphysician Undercover
Which Christian tradition do you have in mind? On the contrary, I think that most Christians would characterize "behaving selfishly, harming others, manipulating them, exploiting them, discriminating against them, causing them to suffer, etc." as evil (i.e., sinful). — aletheist
You seem to have a highly unusual understanding of Christian doctrine. Any action that is in any way inconsistent with God's nature - or God's will, if you prefer - is sin, and therefore evil. — aletheist
I think you need to differentiate between sin and evil. — Metaphysician Undercover
And you argue that to be inconsistent with God's will is necessarily sinful, and even evil. — Metaphysician Undercover
No human being can choose the absolute best action, and therefore no human being's actions are truly consistent with God's will, even though our actions are good. — Metaphysician Undercover
We do sin sometimes, but sinning is mistaken actions, and so long as we recognize our mistakes as mistakes, we may be forgiven. — Metaphysician Undercover
All sin is evil. Do you disagree? — aletheist
I argue that to be inconsistent with God's nature is necessarily sinful, and therefore evil; and again, God does not will anything contrary to His own nature. — aletheist
This is contradictory, in my view; any action that is inconsistent with God's will cannot be good. Indeed, no human being is capable of living 100% consistently with God's will: "The Lord looks down from heaven on the children of man, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God. They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one." (Psalm 14:2-3) — aletheist
Sinning is not just mistaken actions; often we sin quite deliberately, with full awareness that what we are doing is wrong. — aletheist
What's the point in holding such a believe which makes all human beings necessarily evil, because it is impossible for a human being to be as God? — Metaphysician Undercover
Why even try to be good if it's impossible for us, and we're necessarily going to be evil anyway? — Metaphysician Undercover
Yes, I disagree, I think that "evil" is a stronger word than sin, signifying a greater transgression. I think if we ask many of the same questions of "evil', and of "sin", we will come up with different answers, signifying a difference between them. For example, if we ask of sin and of evil, are they forgivable, the answer is likely that sin is forgivable, but evil is not. — Metaphysician Undercover
Are you not familiar with the traditional Christian doctrines of original sin and the Fall? God created the first humans in His own image, such that they were able to live in complete accordance with His nature and will. However, they freely chose to sin instead, and the inability of their descendants (including you and me) to live in complete accordance with God's nature and will is a consequence of that. — aletheist
Your position makes us all sinners because of the original sin. — Metaphysician Undercover
By seeing us as inherently good, but simply mistaken in our sins, God is capable of forgiving us. Likewise, we see others as inherently good, but mistaken in their sins, so we forgive them. — Metaphysician Undercover
Christian theology teaches that God is forgiving, and sinning does not render us as evil, because we can be forgiven. — Metaphysician Undercover
Human beings are still inherently good despite the fact that we are not perfectly good. — Metaphysician Undercover
Christian theology teaches that sin does render us as evil. If we were not evil, then there would be no need for us to be forgiven - i.e., no need for Jesus to die on the cross in order to make our forgiveness possible. — aletheist
...no need for Jesus to die on the cross in order to make our forgiveness possible. — aletheist
We deny ourselves the capacity for understanding the other's intent, by designating it as evil, because the intent to do evil is irrational and cannot be understood. So we must allow that the other's actions are guided by some good, it is just inconsistent with our good. There is a need for reconciliation, not a designation of opposing sides. — Metaphysician Undercover
To bring the mark into the light is to bring out the good. — Metaphysician Undercover
The mark, the target of one's moral action is the beam in one's own eye, not the mote in another's. — unenlightened
I think we are irrational. And this understanding allows me to understand evil intent. I agree with you in one sense, but it becomes an abuse of language; man with sword intends to kill, man with scalpel intends to preserve life. These cannot be reconciled. A man thinks it is good to kill random passers by with a vehicle to promote a cause and the right understanding of God - that man has it wrong. And so does the man who thinks it is good to do the same thing in a jet plane in a foreign land in the name of democracy. To fight a war against terror is about as rational as curing the fear of heights by throwing folks off a cliff. — unenlightened
I don't see the point in posting a bunch of out of context quotes. — Metaphysician Undercover
If only God is good, as your quote from the Bible claims, and sin renders us evil, as you claim, where does forgiveness leave us? — Metaphysician Undercover
You have no idea what forgive means, do you? — Metaphysician Undercover
The mark, the target of one's moral action is the beam in one's own eye, not the mote in another's. — unenlightened
The point is that Jesus clearly taught that human beings since the Fall are not inherently good, contrary to your position. I did not think that it would be appropriate to post the entire context of each quote; I provided the citations so that you can look up the passages yourself if you are so inclined. I also stuck to statements of Jesus Himself; the list would be much longer if I had included the entire New Testament. — aletheist
I answer that, We must speak of good and evil in actions as of good and evil in things: because such as everything is, such is the act that it produces. Now in things , each one has so much good as it has being: since good and being are convertible, as was stated in the first part (Q.5 AA. 1,3). But God alone has the whole plenitude of His Being in a certain unity: whereas every other thing has its proper fullness of being in a certain multiplicity. Wherefore it happens with some things, that they have being in some respect, and yet they are lacking in the fullness of being due to them. Thus the fulness of human being requires a compound of soul and body, having all the powers and instruments of knowledge and movement: wherefore if any man be lacking in any of these, he is lacking in something due to the fullness of his being. So that as much as he has of being, so much has he of goodness: while so far as he is lacking in the fullness of his being, so far is he lacking in goodness, and is said to be evil: thus a blind man is possessed of goodness inasmuch as he lives; and of evil, inasmuch as he lacks sight.
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We must therefore say that every action has goodness, in so far as it has being: whereas it is lacking in goodness, in so far as it is lacking in something that is due to its fullness of being; and thus it is said to be evil: for instance if it lacks the quantity determined by reason, or its due place, or something of the kind.
This is why you should read some theology rather than just relying on some interpretations of what Jesus said. — Metaphysician Undercover
It may be that original sin is the reason why the human soul is always united to a body, and does not exist as a separate substance. — Metaphysician Undercover
In as much as a human being is an existing being, one is inherently good, as I say, but to the extent that we are deficient we are all evil, as you say. — Metaphysician Undercover
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