I think you refer to the pyrotechnic universe. Two branes repeatedly closing in causing big bangs on both. Finite energy each time, but increasing the total. Which is already infinite, but accelerated away to infinity. I have a similar, but different view though.

The problem with perpetual motion machines (I suppose the holy grail of mechanical engineers):

Say machine P,

1. P must produce energy, say 100%.

2. 100% must recharge P + Do work.

3. Doing work will consume, say 30%.

4. Available energy to recharge is 70%.

5. Even if all 70% can be used to recharge P, you get only 70%.

6. Our new total energy is 70%.

7. Repeat the process and P loses energy at each step.

8. $70 \% \times 70 \% \times ... \rightarrow 0$

But $0$ is not something you take lightly.

Fission/Fusion? If only a fraction of the energy released in a fission/fusion reaction is needed to create another fissile/fusionable material/particle then we're talking.

Fissioning particel A releases 10 J of energy. 1 J of energy is required to synthesize fissile particle B which again releases 10 J of energy, and so on. I dunno! It's interesting to think about.

What my intuition tells me is that we have to look for is a geometric progression vis-à-vis energy production instead of the usual, arithmetic progression. I'm no good at math, sorry if this is a stupid idea.

$E = mc^2$

Fissioning particel A releases 10 J of energy. 1 J of energy is required to synthesize fissile particle B which again releases 10 J of energy, and so on. I dunno! It's interesting to think about. — TheMadFool

That would be very handy indeed. Effectively, you use all fissile particles to release their energy of which some is used to create them. The number is finite though and thus the energy produced. The energy is used to power stuff. All stuff is bound though to be transformed into pure energy, in which case there is no stuff left to power. All mass being transformed in pure energy is what the second law (of thermodynamics) predicts, so even the universe is no perpetuum mobilae, as there is no mobilae left. Only potential energy with no stuff to work on.

Luckily though, the final phase will set the stage for a new explosion from the virtual into the real, the energy needed for that contained in the vacuum energy. How can the vacuum harbor all the energy to make universes pop up one after another? Look at it like this. At the moment the universe is formed, a compressed spring is released. The universe evolving subsequently compresses it again in about a zillion years. When all stuff has accelerated away from us, and only potentiality will be left with nothing to work on, a new blast of stuff will emerge from the virtual into the real, repeating the process. A cyclic universe. In front of us, an infinity of universes, behind us a new one awaits.

That would be very handy indeed. — Cartuna

Indeed but the chances are that we're daydreaming. I'm just intrigued by the mathematical model for population growth - allegedly exponential.

Wrong scale:

TL;DR, Conservation of Energy always applies and is never violated, period!

...unless time translation symmetry doesn't apply.

If 1 kg of matter can produce 2 "kg" of energy and 1 "kg" of energy can produce 1 kg of matter.

1. 1 $\rightarrow$ 2.

2. 1 for recharge, the other 1 for use

3. We get 1 kg of matter again.

4. Go to 1.

Voila, we have a perpetual motion machine.

Is this exponential?

1 gives 2, 2 gives 4, 4 gives 8,...

Indeed but the chances are that we're daydreaming. I'm just intrigued by the mathematical model for population growth - allegedly exponential. — TheMadFool

It's just a linear growth model.

It's just a linear growth model. — Cartuna

:grin:

If one kg fission material could produce 2kg of it and this is used again for energy, your input is exponential, as well as your output. Which effectively means you set fire to the woods or cause meltdown.

If one kg fission material could produce 2kg of it and this is used again for energy, your input is exponential, as well as your output — Cartuna

Yes. Is it possible? $1 \rightarrow 2 \rightarrow 4 \rightarrow 8...$ We have the math ready, as it were, to find a physical phenomenon to latch on to.

A mathematical universe?

Yes. Is it possible? 1→2→4→8...1→2→4→8... We have the math ready, as it were, to find a physical phenomenon to latch on to. — TheMadFool

You will have burned your mass in a flash. You cant get 2kg of matter out of one.The amount of mass is finite. If 2kg fission material can be created with one, the amount of fission material will be reduced. Depending on how fast you use it. In fusion nowadays the amount of energy put in is about equal from what you get. If you get more out than in the process self-sustains. But hydrogen will be finito once. Would be nice if it worked though. Oceans of hydrogen, made from water with the energy produced when the small sun starts shining (like you prooposed). Somehow though, creating the Sun on Earth seems like challenging the gods.

:grin:

It strikes me why not more money is invested in fusion. It's the solution to all energy problems, and the only waste is helium to make us quak like ducks. No chance of a thermonuclear blast, clean. Hydrogen for cars. No ugly windmills. Till the end of time. If only...

A perpetual motion machine is also possible if the energy required to do the same thing drops (inertia?)

Suppose machine P recharges itself with 70% efficiency.

1. P does work worth 30% of its total energy (x)

2. It reinvigorates itself with 70%. (0.7x)

3. The same work now requires 15% energy (halving)

4. 15% of 0.7x = 0.105x.
.
.
.

Both the energy available and the energy used are geometric progressions:

Energy available, EA: $1 \times 0.7 \times 0.7 \times...$

Energy used, EU: $0.3 \times 0.5 \times 0.5 \times 0.5 \times...$

The nth term in EA = $0.7^{n-1}$ = $0.5^{0.5n-0.5}$

The nth term in EU = $0.3 \times 0.5^{n-1}$ = $0.5^{0.7+n}$

$0.5n - 0.5 \lt 0.7 + n$

EA > EU at all points in the series. EA $\rightarrow 0$ but never actually hits $0$ but EU tends to $0$.

It's like the amount of food we have is decreasing but so is our appetite. There's always food to go around. :grin:

If so why can't we replicate it? — TheQuestion

Because it involves a singularity, the big crunch. How would you do that in a lab? Create a small back hole and see what happens?

Our Universe is supposed be an example of a closed system with a finite amount of energy in existence. — TheQuestion

Perhaps it is. That doesn't mean it corresponds to any microcosmic understanding or "law" of energy or finity as we know it. Let's say black/white hole theory is correct. That would make black holes God's/the Universe's "recycling bins" though perhaps there's a more poignant term. Say a planet somewhere far away doesn't happen to end up gravitating around a massive star and so/or otherwise isn't able to produce conditions to sustain life. Or say it does and said life becomes so heh "advanced" they end up wiping out all chances for life intelligent and otherwise through warfare. Both hypothetical planets would eventually end up in one of these black holes and every single element, atom, and everything in between would for lack of better words be chewed up and spit back out in it's most base form thus continuing existence. Who knows. Perhaps this has happened countless times before and us humans are little more than one of the worst outcomes of this process and beings unfathomably more advanced than us lived for eons. Before again, this inevitable process consumed them. Maybe some even managed to escape. We'll never know.

Because it involves a singularity, the big crunch. How would you do that in a lab? Create a small back hole and see what happens? — Olivier5

In Israel they already creating artificial black holes to test a few theories. So that is not outside the realm of possibility.

“Israeli Physicists Create Black Hole in Lab to Prove Stephen Hawking Was Right about Them” -
https://www.news18.com/news/buzz/israeli-physicists-create-black-hole-in-lab-to-prove-stephen-hawking-was-right-about-them-3498767.html

Who knows — Outlander

I do. Mass ingested by a black hole is instantly radiated outward by Hawking radiation. From the outside this can take billions of years. All matter in the universe will one day be turned into EM radiation, scattering the information of the material universe before all over. Just a potential memory of the universe as it was will be left. Only potential energy, no mass to release it upon left. Time for a new big bang.

That would make black holes God's/the Universe's "recycling bins" though perhaps there's a more poignant term. — Outlander

I wouldn’t say that black holes are God’s but seeds to the creation of the next Universe.

I believe Black holes are the catalyst for the next Big Bang.

In the center in every galaxy there is a Mega Black Hole. That’s what keeps the Galaxy together. Without the Black Hole in the center the of each Galaxy it's anatomy would fall apart ceasing to exist. Is the gravitational force of the Mega Black hole that becomes the glue that keeps it together.

In the similar manner as how the Earth rotates around the Sun. The gravitation force of the sun holds the planets in it's orbital position. The Black hole in the center of the galaxy has a similar effect.

Granted there are other factors to keep in mind but this is just a brief outline of my personal theory.

Anyway, there are billions of Galaxies in the Universe housing a black hole at it's center and maybe even micro black holes in a quantum level spread through out time space.

When the big crunch happens imagine where all the black holes go. All the black holes in our Universe will merge together into one singularity.

Which I believe will be the smoking gun to the next big bang.

And a White hole may be the end result or what is described as the next Big Bang.

Many may argue that White holes don’t exist but I speculate that the Big Bang is a white hole and it is connected to a black hole or cosmic level black hole.

There has been evidence leading to it's existence. I believe the gamma-ray burst labeled GRB 060614 is evidence of a White Hole.

“Have we seen a white hole?”
https://earthsky.org/space/have-we-seen-a-white-hole/

I believe Black holes are the catalyst for the next Big Bang. — TheQuestion

That's what Smolin thinks. Inside every black hole a new universe. The universes would grow smaller and smaller though. On the other side of the big bang point, a mirror universe is present. Call it a white hole. The point, the worm hole, from where these two universes emerged is 4d. As 3d universes they can accelerate away from it in 4d, making room behind us for a new dual bang.

They didn't grow a real back hole though, but a fake one according to your linked article. Not sure what that is.

They didn't grow a real back hole though, but a fake one according to your linked article. Not sure what that is. — Olivier5

Black holes can even be simulated with water.

See here

In the linked article it is said a faux BH was created with 1000 atoms. The atoms are pushed into an BEC and gas flowing inward represented space.

Phonons in that gas simulated photons in the Hawking radiation. The event horizon was there where the gas flowed with the speed of its own sound to the BEC, a state of 1000 atoms resembling a single atom (no black hole though, because for that the atoms have to be pushed together with a lot lot more energy, as the event horizon is tiiiiny, like the 3cm horizon for earth; at CERN they smashed up protons with the aim of constructing holes in the framework of one large extra space dimension, in which case it would be possible; they didn't succeed; I could have told them; wasted toil...).

The gas was forced to flow to the Bose-Einstein condensate with increasing speed creating an event horizon for phonons, like there is for particles in the real case. In the real case fluctuations in the particle field at the horizon are realized (which are entangled with the stuff inside, thereby solving the information paradox).

In this case phonon fluctuations are realized by the velocity ingredient of inflowing gas. Where the speed of the inflowing gas equals the velocity of the speed of sound in the gas, the horizon produces pairs of phonons.

Like particle pairs get real near the real horizon, one of which has negative energy to annihilate internal BH mass (not an antiparticle, but a negative energy one). This last aspect is present in the sense that the inward traveling phonon has no real negative energy but it certainly affects the BEC.

In the simulated state there is no entanglement between the phonons and the BEC. This would be the case if the condensate could have conveyed information about its state to the gas that it is placed in. Like in the real case the state of the hole is conveyed to the surface during formation and in fact to all of space there during formation).

From the inside, the formation takes a small time while from the outside it takes "a bit" longer, depending on the mass. If you jump in the hole, you feel that you get radiated away in a flash. From the outside, I see you slowly emerging, from slow with low temperature to fast high T. Though the emitted power stays the same. So you would leave a final flash. But a low intensity one. A mini flash.

Well, as one poster remarked a long time ago, if space expands, entropy will/shouldn't max out. As long as entropy has no upper bound that it can reach, we should be able to keep on doing work. I miss weekends.

Unless entropy is all sent to photons, while all matter has left the scene. Entropy will rise and rise, to infinity. But if there is no matter left to impose their potential energy on (and thus gets real), it doesn't work. A photon gas without matter is as useless as a matter gas without photons.

In glorious unity
They propagate
Oh divine vertex
Connect me
I need to connect
Let's connect
Oh divine connection
Let's propagate
Let's correlate

But if there's nothing to connect to, you get in trouble. Propagation of the potential only can't create vertex factors of the real is absent. Only with virtuallity connections can be made, in that case. The potentiality will not be able to pull the virtual into real existence, so badly needed for true connection. The photon gas has to low an energy and is too wild to realize the real. So all that's left is the means to connect, increasing its entropy untill infinity, like a gas in an ever expanding box).

:ok:

The answer to the question: yes. Each universe that follows up a previous one, and being the cause of the next, will inevitably end up in total potential chaos which will obtain zero temperature at infinity. There will be no matter left for machineries at all. But as this state is the seed for a next universe, in which new machineries can evolve. The overall picture is one in which the energies never change but the distributions of these energies are constantly changing. From totally actual to totally potential, from totally virtual to totally real. Around the spatially 4d wormhole two 3d mirror universes explode into real existence when a previous pair has accelerated away to infinity. They arise from the virtual activity around the throat of the wormhole where entropic time goes to and fro, uo and down, within the Planck interval of time, [-tp, +tp].

The 2nd law of thermodyanmics admits of/allows for entropy to reduce. There's a non-zero chance, even if vanishingly small, that all the matter in the universe will gather together and reform a Big Bang singularity given enough time (googolplex years?) and we have all the time in the world ($\infty$).