The importance of celebrating evil, irrationality and dogma

Wittgenstein

A world with evil and goodness in it is definitely a more interesting place than a world devoid of evilness. I don't see why people have a problem with the existence of evil. Imagine reading a novel or watching a movie without a single evil/ambiguous/chaotic character. Thanks to all the suffering and evil in the world, we have art and a keen understanding of aesthetics. Suffering from evil has its own joy and lessons. Activism and passive acceptance are both inadequate when it comes to creating a strong force in life, they should exist but under the service of a higher blind unjustified drive.

We should replace marxist utopian ideals and gritty realism/ pragmatism on the other hand (overall contemporary attitude) with an irrational blind will and let it take its direction.That is not to say we should view people who hold different viewpoint from us as being right in their own way.

Post modernism has a big fault, it doesn't allow an individual or a group to assert itself in a forceful manner. We must learn to admire fundamentalist, terrorists, extremists AS FAR AS their determination and solidarity is concerned. Ironically, a terrorist can live a more meaningful life compared to an average person held hostage by postmodernism. I can almost feel a return of religion in a new shape once the postmodern period is over. People will become religious once again in the sense of having unshakable convictions.

Tobias

A world with evil and goodness in it is definitely a more interesting place than a world devoid of evilness. — Wittgenstein

A world with only goodness is untinkable. the least good would by definition be evil. The concepts define themselves opposite to each other.

Suffering from evil has its own joy and lessons. — Wittgenstein

Really? I think they are lessons I can do without, at least by my own experience. And those lessons are useful only because evil exists, if it wasn't there there would be no need for lessons.

Activism and passive acceptance are both inadequate when it comes to creating a strong force in life, they should exist but under the service of a higher blind unjustified drive. — Wittgenstein

I do not understand this jump. Why should anything exist "under a higher blind unjustified drive"?

We should replace marxist utopian ideals and gritty realism/ pragmatism on the other hand (overall contemporary attitude) with an irrational blind will and let it take its direction.That is not to say we should view people who hold different viewpoint from us as being right in their own way. — Wittgenstein

The problem is that that irrational blind will often leads to destructuve directions and opposes the blind irrational will of others leading to clashes. Most people do not like those ensuing conflicts and channeled this blind irrational will. It is still there of course, but more domesticated, easier to control.

Post modernism has a big fault, it doesn't allow an individual or a group to assert itself in a forceful manner. — Wittgenstein

That is hardly PoMo's fault. Christianity was not big on it either.

We must learn to admire fundamentalist, terrorists, extremists AS FAR AS their determination and solidarity is concerned. — Wittgenstein

Sure and then lock them up. Well not fundamentalists and extremists per se, people are allowed to hold extremist views, right.

Ironically, a terrorist can live a more meaningful life compared to an average person held hostage by postmodernism — Wittgenstein

I very much doubt it. the biographies of most terrorists read like long list of failures in society, addiction, mental health problems etc. Before you know it you find your leg blown off by a US drone as well. Nahh, just romanticism.

I can almost feel a return of religion in a new shape once the postmodern period is over. People will become religious once again in the sense of having unshakable convictions. — Wittgenstein

That is well possible. People like ushakable convictions.

Outlander

I may be mistaken but this OP sounds like a classic case of failure to separate the art from the artist. The ability or possibility for things to occur that are tragic or undesirable be it a simple loss at a friendly game of pool or a terrible tragedy that brings a community together is a world away from people who make the conscious choice to create havoc, discord, and loss of life. This is not a matter of good and evil (perhaps it is but can be more universally accepted as) rather a simple mindset, behavior, or patterns of behavior that have been again universally deemed unproductive to a peaceful and modern society and so must be restricted and perhaps punished according to local laws and customs.

TheMadFool

OP, you're absolutely right.

Vide List of best-selling books.

According to Guinness World Records as of 1995, the Bible is the best-selling book of all time with an estimated 5 billion copies sold and distributed. — Wikiepedia

. Satan/The Devil/Lucifer/The Deceiver as the arch-villain.

Having sold more than 500 million copies worldwide, Harry Potter by J. K. Rowling is the best-selling book series in history. — Wikpedia

Lord Voldemort/Tom Marvolo Riddle/He who must not be named/in my dictionary, asshole of the millennium (actually I like him, he's got style).

Yin-Yang.

Without Ravana, Rama would be just another face in the crowd, ordinary, booooring!

john27

↪Wittgenstein

My main problem is that it's much too polarizing for my taste. The good/evil dynamic absolutely consumes everything in its path, leaving no space for situational nuances, and seldom carries within itself something that is even slightly unique.

It is as well incredibly confrontational. No space for harmonics; It's pure, it's raw, and one side is going to win, no matter what. No room for compromise.

Deleted User

...celebrating evil....I don't see why people have a problem with the existence of evil.... — Wittgenstein

So if I were to rape you in the face and ass and then with the same dick rape your family one by one while you watched, you would celebrate?

(Like with cake and ice cream and party favors and a chorus of hurrahs?)

Would you find joy in that sort of suffering?

Or are you maybe thinking of evil in the abstract? Or as directed toward some Bestiary of the Abstractified Stranger?

Deleted User

a terrorist can live a more meaningful life compared to an average person ... — Wittgenstein

Yes, a villified outgroup gives an ingroup a deep sense of life-meaning. It's "quicker, easier, more seductive."

Wisdom is the struggle toward life-meaning without recourse to a vilified outgroup.

Philosophim

↪Wittgenstein

Perhaps you misunderstand what "evil" is in entertainment. Evil serves the purpose of representing a challenge to overcome for growth. Evil is seen as a thing to be conquered for success. It is a lens to learn a lesson, so you do not commit evil in your own life.

Real world evil is not interesting. If someone kidnapped you and sawed your arms off without any sedatives, would that be entertaining? How about a bomb in real life that blows a child's head off, and permanently twists and disfigures the remaining people around it?

You are confusing the world of fiction, and its purpose, with the real world. Evil is never entertaining, except perhaps to the one committing it. Terrorists mangle and ruin lives for some ideology that obviously most people don't want to live by.

We must learn to admire fundamentalist, terrorists, extremists AS FAR AS their determination and solidarity is concerned. — Wittgenstein

If they are evil fundamentalis, terrorists, and extremists, never. That is determination and ideology that has become twisted for nefarious purposes. It is shameful and tragic; not a thing to be admired.

Banno

OP, you're absolutely right. — TheMadFool

Really? More like a middle-class muma's boy romanticising stuff with which he has little familiarity.

Read @Tobias's reply.

Ciceronianus

Suffering from evil has its own joy and lessons. — Wittgenstein

What if we suffer, but not from evil? Would we still be joyous in that case, or must the cause of suffering be evil in order for us to experience the joy which attends pain and misery? Put another way, is suffering inherently joyful, or only joyful when inflicted by an evil source?

For example, if we suffer due to a bomb planted by a terrorist with the intent to kill or injure people, and are paralyzed, that would presumably have its "own joy" to use your words, being suffering "from evil." But what if we suffer because the driver of a vehicle has a stroke and loses control of it, injuring us and others? Would our resulting paralysis in that case have it's own joy as well?

TheMadFool

OP, you're absolutely right.
— TheMadFool

Really? More like a middle-class muma's boy romanticising stuff with which he has little familiarity.

Read Tobias's reply. — Banno

I didn't want to rain on the OPs parade, plus there's a grain of truth in his post (foils/enhancers are a time-tested plot device).

I don't mean to give my stamp of approval to evil/violence/terrorism of course. As you so rightly pointed out, to do so is "...romanticizing stuff with which he has little familiarity..." Precious lives have been lost on that account.

If you don't mind me asking, what do you make of the theodicean stance that the evil is necessary in a yin-yang sense for good to exist? Come to think of it, Christianity seems to not only expect but also necessitate evil even if it takes the shape of Islamic terrorists (worshippers of the same God).

Paine

↪Wittgenstein

If evil is the creative element you describe, it doesn't need anything from anybody. it is either observed with acuity or misunderstood.

Celebration and worship are directed toward what won't survive without attention and love.

sime

I like the brash and provocative title. As to your underlying views, they sound faintly reminiscent of Leo Strauss. What is your understanding of the modernism/post-modernism distinction?

Book273

Christianity seems to not only expect but also necessitate evil even if it takes the shape of Islamic terrorists (worshippers of the same God) — TheMadFool

Christianity is frequently evil in it's responses to any religion not it's own, and any people that decide to stand against it.

There is truth in the cliche: There is no light without darkness, no darkness without light. Life has meaning because we die. Without a contrast...things seem rather drab.

Agent Smith

:cool:

The importance of celebrating evil, irrationality and dogma

Welcome to The Philosophy Forum!

Categories

More Discussions