false analogies — NOS4A2

I taught you long ago how to demonstrate an analogy is false, and yet you fail to do it. Thus, it stands unimpeached.

I am saying why it is wrong to threaten people with fines if they don’t comply with what I consider a stupid mandate, so maybe you can tell me why it is right. Until then… — NOS4A2

Just because you say it is wrong does not make it so. You need an argument as to why it is wrong. It's kind of like your "should" contention. "Should" is meaningless in the real world. Just because you say it is stupid, does not make it so. Same as "wrong".

I've already taught you why it is right, long ago. And those lessons, again, stand unimpeached, even if unlearned. You need to make arguments for your case, not declarative statements. We all agree with what "should" be. DOH! That says nothing about what is, or what, if anything, should be done about it. I noticed you have not argued that nothing should be done in response to one who does what you and I both agree they shouldn't do. (That would include both the individual and the state.)

Anyway, as has been noted by others, all we are seeing is rainbows and unicorns. Fantasy. Say, how did you get internet service up there in the arctic circle? Satellite? Who put those up? How did you get the solar panels and who made them? Or is it a generator you made by hand and fuel with gas you refined from the oil you dug? Did you kill your meat with your hand-made knife? Just wondering if you need a care package.

It would have taken less time to say why it is right. Once again you’ve taught me nothing.

It would have taken less time to say why it is right. — NOS4A2

That time was taken several times in previous engagements.

Once again you’ve taught me nothing. — NOS4A2

I have taught, but you have not learned.

Depends on your definitions. But no, this is not generally considered the middle of nowhere.

Even the mask mandates and vaccine passports are left to the tax-payer to enforce at their own expense. — NOS4A2

Notice how despite all the restrictions, vaccines, masks, etc Covid is still roaming around eh. As it always was going to. The propaganda lines remain the same "about to reach the turning point" "once the next (whatever) is reached, things will turn around", etc. Always something else and with exactly the same result: a whole lot of not much.

As for the "think about how bad it could have been..." crap, sure. Think about how much better it would have been if we had not had all these panic induced restrictions applied. Minimal job loss, minimal economic downturn, maintained mental health, decreased addiction, decreased suicides...Yep all that certainly would have been terrible. Thank God the governments saved everyone from that. And as a bonus, we all get celebratory needles! Good times for everyone.

Notice how despite all the restrictions, vaccines, masks, etc Covid is still roaming around eh. — Book273

Notice the widespread lack of compliance with all the restrictions, vaccines, masks, etc. It's no wonder Covid is still roaming around eh.

Notice the lack of compliance with all the restrictions, vaccines, masks, etc. It's no wonder Covid is still roaming around eh. — James Riley

That's right, blame something other than the virus. Actual science and vectors and viral spread can eat it; the powers that be yelled out the wrong answer first, louder, and more often than any other response based on logic, so the media believes them. Let's not let minor details like accuracy interfere with a good panic. Where is the fun in that? We have spent so much investing in this fear response, we can't let it go now, it would be wasted effort.

Quick question: if the vaccines actually work why the fuck am I still wearing a mask and why does anyone that has been vaccinated give two shits about Covid? Seriously, the sales pitch doesn't hold up.

That's right, blame something other than the virus — Book273

It's not blaming something "other than" the virus. It's blaming something aiding, abetting and providing comfort to the virus.

Actual science and vectors and viral spread can eat it; — Book273

You must have done your "research". :lol:

the powers that be yelled out the wrong answer first, louder, and more often than any other response — Book273

You lack the skill set required to determine the answer they yelled was wrong. But "Notice the lack of compliance with all the restrictions, vaccines, masks, etc. It's no wonder Covid is still roaming around eh."

any other response based on logic, — Book273

Logic was the restrictions, vaccines, masks, etc. You know, science.

Here's the mentality of the opposition. Present company excepted :wink: :

What a job they’ve done already. Their systems failed at each and every step, yet they still present themselves as the solution. We’re coming up on year three of their tinkering and it’s been a racket.

What a job they’ve done already. Their systems failed at each and every step, yet they still present themselves as the solution. We’re coming up on year three of their tinkering and it’s been a racket. — NOS4A2

What a job you've done already. Your obstruction failed at each and every step, yet you still present yourself as the solution. We’re coming up on year three of your tinkering and it’s been a racket.

The deaths are on the hands of those who knew they didn't know better.

why does anyone that has been vaccinated give two shits about Covid? — Book273

Because many human beings care about other human beings and are not utterly self-centered.

why does anyone that has been vaccinated give two shits about Covid? — Book273

"I Don’t Know How to Explain to You That You Should Care for Other People." Anon.

Sure, other than being wrong, you are spot on. Well done.

The deaths are on the hands of those who knew they didn't know better — James Riley

Umm, No. The deaths are on life. end of story. Everyone currently breathing is going to stop; that is non-negotiable, no matter who does what, when, or how loud they cry about it, everyone stops breathing, like it or not. Vaccines won't stop it, nor masks, nor fines, nor anything else any government does, ever.

How we live has value, how long we live is important to the time keepers. So really, the question isn't how long can you live, rather, how would you like to die? Because that is coming anyway, might as well come to terms with it.

Sure, other than being wrong, you are spot on. Well done. — Book273

:grin: I'm not the one supporting the enemy and then blaming the loss on our side. Good job, virus man.

The sad part is that it appears the majority are still buying into the bullshit speeches. Just stunning.

Depends on who you consider the enemy. On this side, that is exactly who you are supporting.

Good job, virus man — James Riley

I am not responsible for this. I would have made something far more lethal. If you are going to do something, do it right eh!

Depends on who you consider the enemy. On this side, that is exactly who you are supporting. — Book273

I consider the virus and those who conspire with it to be the enemy.

I am not responsible for this. I would have made something far more lethal. If you are going to do something, do it right eh! — Book273

You are responsible for supporting the enemy. Like I said, you don't have the skill set to know how to respond, much less creating something more lethal. You couldn't even do it wrong, much less right.

Like on a vent, in a hospital bed — James Riley

You work in an ICU, or are you just running the regular rhetoric? Actual healthcare provider on your end, or armchair theorist?

I am thinking armchair theorist.

I am thinking armchair theorist. — Book273

Yeah, pretty much, but with friends and family (and acquaintances) who have died or suffered from the effects. But let's not get into that, because Doctor Book will just say it's fake news or the evil conspiracy is blaming all death on Covid and it's not real.

But better than armchair theorist, my real motivation is strictly political. I view people on your side as Trump supporting, anti-intellectual, conservative, Republicans. So even if you were right on the merits, I'd be like you and resist "just because." You know, "your own medicine." :grin:

"your own medicine." — James Riley

Nah, not my medicine. Just all my training and experience up to April 2020. After that the expectation shifted from "provide patient care and be a patient advocate" to "promote the public health message". We can be fired and lose our license to practice if we are caught "spreading anti-vaccine information" or going against the public health mandate. I am not Anti-vaccine, I am for informed consent and a patient's right to decide on their course treatment. The math does not add up, I can find peer reviewed articles supporting my position, but if I provide accurate, up to date information to my patients, I can, in theory, lose my job because that could be considered to be working against the public health mandate. Nurses and Doctors are leaving the field, not because they dislike the work, but because we are no longer allowed to practice with any autonomy, I must be my company's mouth piece now. Perhaps I am more comfortable being self employed, poor, and ethically uncompromised than wealthy and pushing a line that I don't believe upon my patients.

We can be fired and lose our license to practice if we are caught "spreading anti-vaccine information" or going against the public health mandate. — Book273

:cheer: :cheer: :cheer: :strong:

It's still permissible to mandate less than safe medications, under the proviso that the situation is so dire that it warrants such a measure. — baker

What's the dire situation in this case? The vaccinated are protected. Why should they care? They only care about their beds being occupied in the hospital by the non-vaxed. Or that they are infected again by them. So the call to consciousness ("you're selfish if you don't vax") is just a cry of fear coming out of vaxed mouths. It's the vaxed who are selfish. Believing that vaxing is the only solution to the problem. This propagandized thought and necessary action according to a few people proclaiming themselves the experts and who represent the established culture (scientific thinking, which is the cause of the global outbreak in the first place), is overtaken by the people, and this is subsequently called the reaction of "the collective", which is no more than the selfish thought of the majority who fear. If acupuncture were the state-approved medicine, and acupuncture treatment was made mandatory, I wonder if the vaxers caĺling for mandate would want to let them be treated with acupuncture needles. It's up to the citizens of a free society to decide if they want a needle or not. Be it a vax needle or accu needles. Any claim to moral responsibility is false and misleading.

What's the dire situation in this case? — Cartuna

It's called a pandemic. Millions have died. Millions more have long hauler problems.

They only care about their beds being occupied in the hospital by the non-vaxed. — Cartuna

True that. I don't think smokers go to the front of the line for a lung transplant, or alcoholics for a liver. Why should an anti-vaxxer take up a bed when they get Covid, to the exclusion of someone who needs it from a car accident or whatever?

And it's not all about me, me, me. I might want that bed for a loved one. If you don't want to vax, then don't go to the fucking hospital when you get Covid. Stay home and die. If you are afraid of a needle, that's on you.

Any claim to moral responsibility is false and misleading. — Cartuna

I know the virus is winning this war. I think that is pretty clear. I just find it disingenuous for your side to refuse to take any credit for the win.

You act as if you’ve been neutral, watching from the sidelines; non-combatant, innocent victims, suffering from the oppressive, draconian efforts of my side. That is simply not the case. My side lost the war because too large a percentage of the population actively fought on the side of the virus, spreading it, creating variants, throwing temper tantrums, and otherwise failing to support the troops. Had you all, or at least most of you, joined us in our fight against the virus, we would have won long ago. But, politics.

Anyway, I'm off to bed. You continue to rage against the machine. :roll:

If this sales pitch were applied at a mechanics shop, no one would go back, everyone would want a refund, and the shop would be out of business in a very short while.

Mechanic: Your car is broken. I will fix it for $50

Customer: It seems ok to me. see? it runs fine.

Mechanic: No, it's broken, I hear a noise. $50 to fix it.

Customer: Well, you are the expert. Here is $50.

Mechanic: Thanks (looks under hood, wiggles something, closes hood) All better.

Customer: I can't hear any difference.

Mechanic: That's because it's better.

Customer: So I can leave now?

Mechanic: No. I hear a different noise. $50 to fix it. Then you can go about your day.

Customer: What? Fine. Here's another $50.

Mechanic : Thanks (repeats initial process)

Customer: So now I can leave right?

Mechanic: No. There is another different noise. $75 to fix it.

This can go on forever.

How many of us would expect the customer to stay there and keep forking out money? And how many would expect passers by to weigh in on the situation and call the customer names when they have had enough of the mechanic shop and want to leave?

So why is it different when It's public health that says "No, you can't leave yet. Now you need a booster..."

Millions have died. Millions more have long hauler problems — James Riley

Standard response to living. Here Coronavirus has result in 30000 deaths, over 20 months. However, a regular month has 24000 deaths, so really, an increase of 6.25% from baseline. Hardly worth the pandemic response.

alcoholics for a liver. — James Riley

No. The alcoholics get a great deal of the blood transfusions however, and ICU time. We treat what comes in, when it comes in. We don't sit at the door in judgement and decide who is worthy of saving or not. That would effectively close the hospital doors to everyone, because it isn't that hard to find fault in decisions that lead to poor health outcomes, therefore, everyone has contributed to their health situation, and so should get no treatment for it. I guess I will hang a closed sign at the hospital doors, power down the Emergency sign and go home eh!

Don't worry, the coffee is on, the machines are ready to go, and we have your back. I couldn't care less about your vaccination status; not before the emergency, during or after. Have a great night.

No. The alcoholics get a great deal of the blood transfusions however, and ICU time. We treat what comes in, when it comes in. We don't sit at the door in judgement and decide who is worthy of saving or not. That would effectively close the hospital doors to everyone, because it isn't that hard to find fault in decisions that lead to poor health outcomes, therefore, everyone has contributed to their health situation, and so should get no treatment for it. I guess I will hang a closed sign at the hospital doors, power down the Emergency sign and go home eh!

Don't worry, the coffee is on, the machines are ready to go, and we have your back. I couldn't care less about your vaccination status; not before the emergency, during or after. Have a great night. — Book273

I think that may be part of your failure to understand pandemic. You are not some Trapper John or Hawkeye Pierce. And I am not Major Burns. You are not in the comfort of some MASH hospital, where you get to step up when the wounded come in, and protest the war in your free time. No. You are now on the front lines, doing the actual fighting. You are the bullet catchers this time around and now you know what it's like. You don't get the luxury of questioning authority when the mission is to assault the hill, where you have leaders, whether you like them or agree with them or not, who are telling you which hill to take, how to execute the mission, and they provide you with the weapons.

If you want to stand around and argue with a seasoned sergeant about a better way to do something, guess what: You're not only endangering your own life, but you are endangering the lives of your fellow troops. You might as well, and actually are, a traitor, giving aid and comfort to the enemy.

If you wanted to be a general, then you should have put the time in and earned your stars. But right now, you need to be fighting. You can write your book after the war, win or lose. Right now we are losing because too many people are with the enemy and, unfortunately we have enemy in the ranks.

I talked to my old Corpsman and asked him how they handled the wounded enemy. He said his charge was first to get our (his) own troops back in the fight. If a person was a lost cause, they moved on to the next troop. If and when there was time, he would go with Hippocrates and take care of the enemy.

But no, we have enemy helping the virus, not only in the rear with the gear, but on the front lines, in our own ranks. If we lose this war (which we are) it will be squarely on their shoulders. All the dead, all the wounded, all the non-combatants. Want to write a book and tell me why the war sucked, why the generals sucked, why the weapons sucked? Fine, do it after the shooting stops.

I've never seen a single General on TPF. At best, it's a bunch of disgruntled solders, whining to the public about the chow and how hard life is as a grunt, and how they would fight the war if they were in charge.

Maybe there should be no war. Maybe we should capitulate to a virus. Maybe it's a virus of our own making (a military industrial complex scheme to get money). But yeah, lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way, or, if you decide to actively resist, risk getting shot. In this case, fired. I'm all for that.

A little off-topic, but on this pandemic/war thing, I find myself eager to tell the Republicans to GFTs next time they pretend there is some existential threat from some tin-horn POS dictator overseas. The run-up to Iraq was all "you don't support the troops" and "you question a POTUS in a time of war" and other shaming which worked. Even the so-called "liberal press" was cowed and gave a pass. Well, I will remember. While I'm already against the next war, no matter which side tries to gin it up, I'm going to remember who was with us and who was against us in this war against a virus. Will I cut off my nose to spite my face? It won't be my nose and it won't be my face. I'll be a selfish little shit. I'm learning how Republicans and conservative play the game. I'll play by their rules and fuck them coming and going.