Standard response to living. Here Coronavirus has result in 30000 deaths, over 20 months. However, a regular month has 24000 deaths, so really, an increase of 6.25% from baseline. Hardly worth the pandemic response. — Book273

I want to ask "where is 'here'"? but like I said before, I don't want to get into the weeds. You'd answer, and then we'd be talking about the efficacy and relative draconian nature of the government response in this jurisdiction or that. But every fact presented will just result in a pivot and another complaint. So don't bother.

An increased death rate of 6.25% is indeed tolerable, and should be higher, IF it's limited to political Darwinism. But I'm afraid otherwise good people, some with comorbidities, or unrelated disease or injury are dying or suffering that should not. Is that part of life? Yes, so what? Let it be the lives of those who don't give a shit; not the lives of those who do. But from what I hear, you aren't parsing that distinction. You let anyone in and treat anyone, while some innocent non-combatant who did everything that was asked of him, dies in the waiting room, or on the chopper to some other hospital that might have a bed.

How many of us would expect the customer to stay there and keep forking out money? And how many would expect passers by to weigh in on the situation and call the customer names when they have had enough of the mechanic shop and want to leave?

So why is it different when It's public health that says "No, you can't leave yet. Now you need a booster..." — Book273

Your analogy can be distinguished with a panoply of relevant differences. But let's start with some of the most important ones:

1. Cars don't infect each other;
2. You have to have (and pay for) a license to drive that perfect car, even if you are objectively qualified;
3. You have to periodically prove yourself;
4. You have to have air quality control devices on your perfect vehicle, whether you think you have the god-given right to pump your shit into the air or not;
5. Government does not have to assume the burden of proving you are not polluting beyond standards they set, based upon criteria that you are incapable of understanding;
6. If you don't want to comply, then you can use your own roads on your own property;
7. If you don't like the way the shop is run, quit;
8. We apply different standards to human life than we do to cars;
9. If everyone would have attached an emission control device and stayed in their lane (like they were politely asked to do), that mechanic would never have opened shop in the first place; nor could he recommend a second, third, fourth repair, etc. But no, we want to drive all over the fuck and gone, bending fenders and pumping tons of shit into the air because 'Murica! Freedom! (without responsability).

I could go on (and on), but suffice it to say, your analogy doesn't pass muster. If you think our response to the pandemic is the equivalent of your huckster mechanic, then stay home and don't use him. A "strike" or a "boycott" if you will. But stay off our roads and out of our public rights-of-way. Guess, what? Then, if it's as you say it is, indeed the jerk will go out of business. But freedom isn't free and rights come with responsibilities. Pay the price and quit using our shit if you don't want to play ball or if you think the game is rigged. That'll teach 'em.

Where I live, an inspection for $50 would be a great deal, actually.

We’re limping into year three of Covid fascism and Germany is now working to ghettoize the unvaccinated as cases and deaths rise in the country. Far from being immune, though, from both government overreach and the virus, the vaccinated may soon lose their vaccinated status 9 months after the last shot, so those who have complied will just have to comply again and again and again, lest they lose what’s left of their piddly state-sanctioned freedoms.

No matter. Vaccination will soon be mandatory in Germany, anyways.

Hope you had a good sleep! There is no raging against the machine on my part. That raging exists i your eyes only.

If people wanna vax, why not? It's up to them. I just analyzed the workings of the machine that tries to push vaccination.

It's you who rages against me, together with the machine that tries to arrive at 70% vaccination to reach group immunity (what has happened in Germany now is exactly the situation I asked about on a political forum after which my question got closed almost instantly; 70% is not reached and next year the needle will be driven into you by law; just a small pragmatic measure taken...).

Rage against the human being, by the machine. By means of painting a picture of being an amoral monster ìf not vaxed. Whý do the vaccinated care that I don't vax? Because the 70% of group immunity is not reached if you don't.

There are more ways to fight the disease though, and the appeal to "moral responsibility" is just a means of the established way of thinking and constructing a society which gave rise to a global spread of the virus in the first place.

I have my own means to fight the disease. And now I wear a mask when vaxed people are around not to protect myself but to prevent them from getting infected! Well, of course they are right insofar the working of the vaccine is concerned, as it's not as effective as thought, as was to be expected with a a vaccine based on a small piece of viral DNA, to be proteinized into a single virus spike. Injecting that stuff is not my way of preventing disease, and I just don't want it to be injected in me. That's all!

"Oh, come on, just vax, what do you care? Do it for other people's sake..." Moral respnsibility, yeah yeah. Well fuck that! Now I'm indeed raging against the machine! If it rages to me, I rage back.

In a truly free society all ways of being and living should be allowed, and not only a scientifically based approach, involving mostly abstract knowledge concerning the virus and the world we live in.

It's not that I just wanna be contrary and it's all about me. I care for my loved ones, who doesn't? I don't want them to get sick either. By vaxing or not. It's up to them.

A state-connected approach, shaping modern society, with devastsating effects on the world we live in (when the raging starts...). Giving rise to abstract entities like group immunity, the collective, an real entities offering a means for the virus to go global. You might say I let others do the vaxing for me, but they wanna be vaxed themselves. Good for them! Let those who wanna get vaxed be vaxed! Let those who don't want not be! I think the comparisons with Nazi-Germany are way over the top though.

Don't worry, I will not use your hospital bed when I get ill, nor that of your loved ones. But if you or your loved one get injured in a car incident, she should not occupy my bed or that of my loved one, as we don't drive cars.

And by the way, I have no fear of needles. Why do you think that? I guess it's part of the collective machine puffing its steam...

You should get vaccinated

Don't worry, I will not use your hospital bed when I get ill, nor that of your loved ones. But if you or your loved one get injured in a car incident, she should not occupy my bed or that of my loved one, as we don't drive cars. — Cartuna

Why does that matter, you travel on roads, don’t you? If you never go anywhere, the things that you and your loved ones consume depend on automotive transportation. In any case, I probably won’t need the ICU bed because I’ve been vaccinated.

Hope you had a good sleep! — Cartuna

Try quoting me (like I just did you) so I receive notification that you are engaging me. Otherwise, I will assume you are trying to avoid your education.

Whý do the vaccinated care that I don't vax? — Cartuna

Because they are concerned, not just about themselves (like you), but about their loved ones, friends, acquaintances; and access to hospital beds if they might need them for some other reason. Guys like me just want to see who we can count on in a pinch. You know, like when the "big one" comes along.

The rest of your post is gibberish that has been repeatedly and logically trounced in this thread, ad nauseum. For that reason, and your apparent inability to properly engage, I'll leave you to go read it. Or not. Let us know how your horse de-wormer is working out for you. Have another shot of bleach.

Don't worry, I will not use your hospital bed when I get ill, nor that of your loved ones. — Cartuna

Other than keeping your filthy disease to yourself, that is all anyone asks. Thank you.

You should get vaccinated — Michael

I know. I don't go for small pieces of virus DNA though. I want it all... My cells have better things to do than produce spikes. Even that is asked from you. To produce your own piece of virus. For my fellow men...

In any case, I probably won’t need the ICU bed because I’ve been vaccinated. — praxis

That's true, praxis. But you might need a bed for non-Covid reasons. I think some folks have already died being life-flighted to other hospitals because the one they went to was full of anti-vaxxer types who went in on bended knee, repenting their stupidity and getting a bed.

Other than keeping your filthy disease to yourself, that is all anyone asks. Thank you. — James Riley

You're welcome!

Because they are concerned, not just about themselves (like you), but about their loved ones, friends, acquaintances; and access to hospital beds if they might need them for some other reason. Guys like me just want to see who we can count on in a pinch. You know, like when the "big one" comes along. — James Riley

You are the one who is only concerned for yourself and your loved ones. As simply as that. All your talk about caring for loved ones is just part of your persuasion technique to make others follow the road as fixed in your mind. My mind ain't fixed. Yours is. So go caring for yourself and your loved ones by raging and preaching the gospel to others or by converting them to the just way. It doesn"t work for me. I have better means than a vaccine. You should learn them if you care about others. But probably these methods won't work for you as you are vax-fixed and a priori putting your thumb down. And even a simple "I hope you had a good sleep" is already a sign of treason in your eyes. So continue happily in your just way for salvation by the vaccine. i won't take it. I, me, myself, and I. How selfish I am...

You are the one who is only concerned for yourself and your loved ones. — Cartuna

Indeed I am. I don't know how to explain to you that you should care about others.

All your talk about caring for loved ones is just part of your persuasion technique to make others follow the road as fixed in your mind. — Cartuna

That is the opinion of one who is selfish, inconsiderate and disrespectful. I find that a lot these days. I want to say it's a sign of the younger generation, but I know a lot of kids who are not like that, and I know a lot of adults who are like you. In fact, I think some 33% of the U.S. is like that. Not sure about elsewhere.

You should learn them if you care about others. — Cartuna

Yeah, I could go back to school, get my PhD in immunology, practice for 30 years and see what I come up with. Or I could just trust Q, drink some bleach, get some horse de-wormer and roll the dice. :roll:

i won't take it. I, me, myself, and I. How selfish I am... — Cartuna

Yeah, I typed up, but was not going to post in the hopes you went away. But since you came back:

I ... I . . . I want it all . . . My . . . my . . . ... — Cartuna

There, fixed it for you. And there you have it.

You should get vaccinated — Michael

If he gets a stroke and becomes paralyzed, will you pay for him for the rest of his life?

Why does that matter, you travel on roads, — praxis

But not in a car.

In any case, I probably won’t need the ICU bed because I’ve been vaccinated. — praxis

Careful there. The going rate in Slovenia is now 40% of those hospitalized for covid are vaccinated. 20% of those needing ICU are vaccinated.

MORAL RESPONSIBILITY.

How strange that it works only one way -- the non-vaccinated hold a moral responsibility toward the vaccinated. But those promoting vaccination (and the vaccinated) have no moral responsibility toward anyone. Least of all towards those who become ill from the vaccine, or who become ill with covid despite being vaccinated.

Why does that matter, you travel on roads,
— praxis

But not in a car. — Cartuna

My tax dollars help to pay for the roads you use, traffic law enforcement, etc., but you would deny me an ICU bed because you’ve gotten too many DUI convictions?

If someone gets a stroke and becomes paralyzed, we put the burden of proving it was the vax that did it on the person, using the same standards we must use to prove it was him who gave Covid to and killed my loved one.

Sounds like Slovenia is not in accord with world results. So maybe that's not on the vaccine. Probably a bad batch or some black market shenanigans. Let's put the burden of proof on those who cite this tripe without investigation.

Regarding moral responsibility, it's a numbers game, like everything else in science. Society is not morally responsible to provide 100% safety to anyone. Their required emission control devices, seat belts and helmets are what they are. Those who want 100% can stay home and hide under the bed.

Funny how the "tough" crowd wants everyone else to stay home while they go out and create variants.

My tax dollars helped to pay for the roads you use, traffic law enforcement, etc., but you would deny me an ICU bed because you’ve gotten too many DUI convictions? — praxis

I don't wanna deny you everything. I just say cars are the cause of many accidents, Mortal ones included. So all cars should be banned, including the roads they travel on. Like all no vaxing should be banned in your eyes.

I don't go for small pieces of virus DNA though. — Cartuna

mRNA vaccines like Pfizer and Moderna don’t use a piece of virus DNA.

So all cars should be banned, including the roads they travel on. Like all no vaxing should be banned in your eyes. — Cartuna

False equivalence. Read the thread. This argument has already been trashed, soundly.

False equivalence. Read the thread. This argument has already been trashed, soundly. — James Riley

I think it's a sound argument. If people don't drive cars, the number of casualties will be reduced. Besides, your constant use of words like trash, filthy or sound will not help you. It's a mere signal of you being part of a propaganda machine. If I must vax, you should stop driving a car. Non-vaxing is a way of life, like driving a car.

If people don't drive cars, the number of casualties will be reduced. — Cartuna

Yes, but driving cars has a legitimate purpose. Not being vaccinated doesn’t have a legitimate purpose. Except in cases where there is a medical reason to not get vaccinated, not being vaccinated is just stubbornness.

I think it's a sound argument. — Cartuna

You don't think. Cars and drivers are heavily regulated, they have emission control devices that are not 100%, you have to wear seat belts, obey limits, stay in your lane, cars don't make each other stop working simply by being there, I could go on demonstrating many other distinctions with a relevant difference, but again, it's already been done.

And still they cause death and injury.

Yes, but driving cars has a legitimate purpose. Not being vaccinated doesn’t have a legitimate purpose. Except in cases where there is a medical reason to not get vaccinated, not being vaccinated is just stubbornness.
6m — Michael

I just don't wanna be vaxed. That's all. Cars have a legitimate purpose because the law is man-made. Just holding on to them is selfish and stubborn.

And still they cause death and injury. — Cartuna

Wait, I didn't think you got to use that argument? Everything causes death and injury. We're all going to die. So go kill yourself if it's no big deal. Or if you want 100% safety, stay home and hide under the bed while the rest of us take government-mandated precautions, created by people who are experts in the field. You know, like seat belts, and emission control devices, and staying in our lane, etc.

I will stipulate to one point: I'm stupid to try and fix stupid by even opening this stupid thread to rehash arguments that start ALL OVER AGAIN every time some stupid person enters the ring with their stupid understanding of the issues. Yet I keep doing it. WTF is wrong with me?

I hereby publicly promise to never open this stupid thread again.

One thing is clear: The empathy of doctors and nurses, who continue to engage the enemy in the face of overwhelming stupidity on the side of the virus, is totally beyond my empathy. And to think, I'm more empathetic than the people who won't think of others. Jeesh!

Bye!

mRNA vaccines like Pfizer and Moderna don’t use a piece of virus DNA. — Michael

Yeah, well, mRNA then. Big difference. The both contain the same message. Strings of 4 bases. Leading to protein. It's gonna be a knowledge battle now?

Wait, I didn't think you got to use that argument? Everything causes death and injury. — James Riley

Yeah, so why bother about non-vaxing?