I see your point, but I don't know...It seems a little too complex for me to apply practically. Personally I just think people should be nice to themselves, even if it doesn't necessarily have any logic behind it.

Personally I just think people should be nice to themselves — john27

Oh, sure - why not? But that's not an ethical position. It's just doing what you want.

Oh, sure - why not? But that's not an ethical position. — Banno

I guess not.

Cheers. Enjoy the Saturnalia in whatever way you choose. But take others into account as you choose.

That's a funny notion: beasts making ethical objections. — Merkwurdichliebe

Well, ole Merkywurdy! Haven’t seen your name pop up in here in a long time. I assumed you had gotten yourself banned.

I wouldn’t be surprised if you kicked a dog when nobody was looking, ‘cause you once verbally abused openly in this forum in the most vulgar tones an old woman I described who was wearing a mask in the supermarket in the early days of the pandemic.

@john27 and @Banno Y’all seem to me to have raised an interesting question: how much is our behavior toward ourselves a matter of ethics?

I may love food and eat so much I become obese. This seems a matter of personal choice, but it is a poor example for my children’s health; if I recline on another’s couch or sit in his chair I am prone to break it; and my obesity is likely to lead to a lot of medical conditions that burden hospitals and cost taxpayers money.

I may wish to be a pauper, but then I am not contributing to the economy by buying things, and the health of our economy is a moral imperative for the nation.

I may cringe at having a needle stuck in my body— and what is more personal than your own body?—but if I don’t get vaccinated, I put at risk the health of everyone else I come close to.

I may love food and eat so much I become obese. This seems a matter of personal choice, but it is a poor example for my children’s health; if I recline on another’s couch or sit in his chair I am prone to break it; and my obesity is likely to lead to a lot of medical conditions that burden hospitals and cost taxpayers money. — Leghorn

I may wish to be a pauper, but then I am not contributing to the economy by buying things, and the health of our economy is a moral imperative for the nation. — Leghorn

I may cringe at having a needle stuck in my body— and what is more personal than your own body?—but if I don’t get vaccinated, I put at risk the health of everyone else I come close to. — Leghorn

Well in all of these examples it is in relation to someone/something else, so you would have some sort of ethical position to not perform/perform these acts. However had nobody perceived these gestures, you would have no ethical standpoint to create morality because it would of became simply a question of preference.

I think it might be better to let @Banno answer this question though. He's the expert.

No, you're right. Each is an ethical consideration only in so far a it involves others.

how much is our behavior toward ourselves a matter of ethics? — Leghorn

Just so: any behaviour that involves others invokes ethical consideration.

All of which leaves open the issue of how one is to make such considerations.

I wouldn’t be surprised if you kicked a dog when nobody was looking, ‘cause you once verbally abused openly in this forum in the most vulgar tones an old woman I described who was wearing a mask in the supermarket in the early days of the pandemic. — Leghorn

Well, I wear a mask routinely, for my protection and that of those I hold dear. SO here's another account on which I might happily receive @Merkwurdichliebe's ire.

What is that - Merkwurdichliebe - love of market value?

any behaviour that involves others invokes ethical consideration.

All of which leaves open the issue of how one is to make such considerations. — Banno

So how would you consider the obesity example? Ought one to avoid obesity in order not to corrupt his children’s health, damage his friends’ furniture or overburden taxpayers?

That is also in relation to others. All of your examples are.

That is also in relation to others. All of your examples are — DingoJones

Give me an example of how your behavior that is ostensibly with regard to your own self doesn’t affect other ppl.

No, you're right. Each is an ethical consideration only in so far a it involves others. — Banno

Hey hey, look at who's learning :cool:

Ought one to avoid obesity in order not to corrupt his children’s health, damage his friends’ furniture or overburden taxpayers? — Leghorn

I wasn't taking a particular ethical stand, just pointing out that sensations are not a suitable basis for ethics.

But since you ask... there's virtue in self control. If overindulgence is the source of one's obesity then one might do well to seek moderation. Those who show self control will be more capable of looking after themselves and others. One might also consider what it would be like to live in a world in which everyone was obese. One might consider what obesity implies in a world in which folk go hungry. There - the three main ethical views in summation.

Me, by articulating these views.

Take:

If overindulgence is the source of one's obesity then one might do well to seek moderation. Those who show self control will be more capable of looking after themselves and others. — Banno

Doesn't this imply that there is an ethical aspect to self-improvement, undermining my basic account? More broadly, the virtue ethics I sometimes espouse is about the improvement of oneself; so on my own account is it an ethical position?

That's were your questions led me.

There - the three main ethical views in summation. — Banno

Sorry: I’m rather slow. What are the three main ethical views?

Doesn't this imply that there is an ethical aspect to self-improvement, undermining my basic account? More broadly, the virtue ethics I sometimes espouse is about the improvement of oneself; so on my own account is it an ethical position? — Banno

Huh. I suppose it could be considered then, as an ethical position...

Man ethics is confusing.

Virtue Ethics:

there's virtue in self control. If overindulgence is the source of one's obesity then one might do well to seek moderation. Those who show self control will be more capable of looking after themselves and others. — Banno

Deontology:

One might also consider what it would be like to live in a world in which everyone was obese. — Banno

Consequentialism:

One might consider what obesity implies in a world in which folk go hungry. — Banno

@Banno

Well, I must admit that your categories are a bit perplexing, especially deontology: the study of the advantageous or needful (?). Also, it seems to me that this aspect of virtue ethics:

Those who show self control will be more capable of looking after themselves and others. — Banno

could as well have been subsumed under “consequentialism”.

In the first the emphasis is on becoming a virtuous person. In the second, on following moral rules. In the third, on the results of one's actions.

All three have a place.

Well yes, exactly the point being made. Banno is saying there isnt any.

In the first the emphasis is on becoming a virtuous person. In the second, on following moral rules. In the third, on the results of one's actions. — Banno

Wouldn’t a virtuous person follow moral rules and therefore do things that result in morally correct actions? Your trinity seems to me to really be a unity.

Your trinity seems to me to really be a unity. — Leghorn

From a distance it might seem so; you need to get closer, examine the detail.

Deontology will claim that something like the golden rule has the prime place in all cases. Virtue ethics will say something like that what is under our control is ourselves, so it is best to position oneself so as to be able to make the better choice.

Would you agree that whatever is real exists, and that whatever is not real does not exist, and that, similarly, anything that exists is real, and anything that does not exist is not real? — Leghorn

Subject to knowledge,
Universe is real but we didn't know it exists for a very long time.
Therefore saying that something is not real because it does not exists is potentially false instead of factually false.

Universe is real but we didn't know it exists for a very long time.
Therefore saying that something is not real because it does not exists is potentially false instead of factually false. — SpaceDweller

I think Leghorn meant to talk about this from a more unbiased point of view; that is we don't necessarily
decide what is real or what exists, it simply is or is not.

Well, ole Merkywurdy! Haven’t seen your name pop up in here in a long time. I assumed you had gotten yourself banned.

I wouldn’t be surprised if you kicked a dog when nobody was looking, ‘cause you once verbally abused openly in this forum in the most vulgar tones an old woman I described who was wearing a mask in the supermarket in the early days of the pandemic. — Leghorn

No haven't gotten banned. It's not very difficult to navigate the intricacies of this forum. The key is to refrain from liking the smell of your own shit, because those who do inevitably find their heads far up their own asses. Once that happens, people get banned.

I remember the early days of the pandemic, when all the cowardly retards bought up all the toilet paper and water. Fucking idiots. And to clarify, I would only kick a dog if someone was watching. When I punt a pooch, I require somebody to witness the distance I get, especially if it's a small dog. However, when I verbally abuse hypothetical old women, I don’t mind doing so in privacy.

Also, you shouldn't confuse physical violence with verbal abuse because it leads to ethical dilemmas. They differ qualitatively as was proven in the classic line: "sticks and stone may break my bones, but words will never hurt me".

you mask wearing sunavabitch!

Sorry for that outburst there, you hit a nerve

Animals can be included in the others to which one may relate. So, have you something to say? — Banno

Indeed, I do!  Conducting animal cruelty in private would only be an ethical issue if the sole human in the scenario were to make a judgment concerning his own action...this is because animals lack the capacity for abstract thought that is required to make ethical judgments.

That noise can equate to an ethical judgment is a ridiculous notion, and I can't believe its coming from you, I expect better. A noise might coincide, or even correspond, to the ethical judgment of a moral agent, like when I say aloud: "wearing masks is evil". But it is never the case that a noise is actually an ethical judgment, especially when it is from a nonmoral agent incapable of ethical thought. Where does it end...the chirping of birds? The flushing of a toilet?

Humans are the only moral agents capable of ethical judgments. Morality exists primarily for the individual as ethical judgments about one's self, and secondarily as ethical judgments about other moral agents.

That's pretty feeble.

That's pretty feeble. — Banno

Really? that's all you have. :rofl: Typical reply from somebody with zero argument. You should just admit that you have no clue as to what you're talking about.

Whatever. You appear to what a fight more than a conversation. I'm not interested.