Not sure you'll get an A but I'm happy you put in the effort. :wink:

To those who think that there is no such formula, consider the "GRE Analytical Writing" section...

It says something philosophically interesting. — jasonm

Assuming it is an essay by an undergraduate.

Be aware that "It says something philosophically interesting" is definitely not about any interesting philosophical ideas of the student

As I see it, what the teacher wants to see when marking an undergraduate essay is for the student to show that they have a good understanding of the history and nature of important philosophical discussion and argument, including up to the present day, and including such things as a knowledge of the branches of philosophy, specific terminology, key philosophers and principal attitudes towards major philosophical topics.

The student is expected to give their reasoned opinion about the pros and cons of the interesting philosophical positions of others, but the teacher does not want them to give their reasoned opinion about the pros and cons of their own interesting philosophical ideas.

IE, in the event that the student writes about their own philosophically interesting ideas they will definitely be marked down.

The essay does not deserve credit for not having syntactic mistakes; logical fallacies; plagiarism. I would expect any fairly good essay to be clear and well-written and on topic. So far, a B. Philosophically interesting and insightful content is what would raise it up to an A (provided the insight and interest characterized the whole paper, and not just 1 small point).

As far as I know, as regards an undergraduate's philosophy essay, a well-written essay about philosophically interesting ideas will be marked down, whilst a well-written essay about the debate within philosophy about interesting philosophical ideas will be marked up.

Philosophically interesting and insightful content is what would raise it up to an A (provided the insight and interest characterized the whole paper, and not just 1 small point). — Bitter Crank

Even more if you know what the professor is into. I made a scription on realism and included the work of the professor. No matter your grammar, your logical inconsistencies, being original or not, you will pass if you clearly include his ideas, even when criticizing them...

I don't know how far this is true but I was told that professors give an A grade in return for sexual favors. It's illegal but that doesn't stop either students or professors does it?

In short, in a professor's mind, all those features mentioned in the OP as those of a good academic essay = an orgasm (or two).

Funny!

- There are very few (or no) syntactic mistakes.
- The ideas are clear and well-written.
- It says something philosophically interesting.
- There are no logical fallacies.
- There is no plagiarism.
- The paper is on-topic.
- Forget about word counts, fonts, APA format, and all other 'periphery' issues.

Does the paper get an "A?" Why or why not? — jasonm

Indeterminable. "Interesting" does not necessarily equate "makes sense". None of the listed qualities equate to "makes sense".

I had a friend in the past, Andy T., who had written two books on the economy. Everything you said of the essay typified the book. But by the time you got to the third page, you were lost. You did not know where or when, or how you lost your way. All you knew was that the book was not telling anything to you that you would understand or agree with.

So you're right, if marks are important to you, make a mark on the professor with your teeth.

In my book it would get an A, provided there are no criteria the student has missed. If a paper gets me interested and I cannot find fault with it, I award an A. I might even award it if there is one small oversight, but it is compensated for by the interesting idea the paper brings to the table.

There are some interesting comments on the Forum, but I doubt they would get an A because they are interesting.

As far as I know, as regards an undergraduate's philosophy essay, a well-written essay about philosophically interesting ideas will be marked down, whilst a well-written essay about the debate within philosophy about interesting philosophical ideas will be marked up. — RussellA

Quite so. People are scared of new ideas, and the most scared of the newest ideas are the most mediocre philosophers. Please see my two essays, and the comments... but I'm preaching to the choir.

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/10744/ethics-explained-to-smooth-out-all-wrinkles-in-current-debates-neo-darwinist-approach

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/10903/shortened-version-of-theory-of-morality-some-objected-to-the-conversational-style-of-my-paper

Quite so. People are scared of new ideas, and the most scared of the newest ideas are the most mediocre philosophers. Please see my two essays, and the comments... but I'm preaching to the choir. — god must be atheist

Yes, but that is also generally what teaching amounts to. Usually one must learn to grasp old ideas before one can succesfully evaluate new ones. Therefore I would mark an essay with an A when it is philosophically interesting and on topic and well documented. Just a new idea while the essay if about evaluating a old one does not get an A automatically. It all depends on the question asked.

and well documented. — Tobias

Not only well documented, but the documentation or intuitive reasoning makes a convincing argument. In other words, if the criteria are present, they only count if the interesting point put forward is well reasoned.

The person marking the undergraduate essay looking to award an A should not be looking for the student's original philosophical ideas but rather the student's original ideas about the relationship between established philosophical ideas.

In addition, such an essay should use clear and simple prose and be be well-structured with a beginning, a body that could be about five points and a short conclusion. The writer should use well-reasoned arguments, possibly making use of hypothetical examples, that lead the reader from obviously true premises to an indubitable conclusion. Each point within the body could start with a thesis describing a particular philosophical position, continuing with an antithesis describing one or more opposing philosophical positions, and finishing with a synthesis where the writer argues for their support of one position or the other.

IE, an undergraduate essay is not about developing new philosophical ideas but is about commenting on existing philosophical ideas in an interesting, reasoned and well-structured way.

What does an A mean?

I don't know how far this is true but I was told that professors give an A grade in return for sexual favors — Agent Smith

Dude, I was all of 16 and it wasn't sexual favors. It was cookies! Made with love cookies but nothing he couldn't take home and share with his wife!
:zip:

- There are very few (or no) syntactic mistakes.
- The ideas are clear and well-written.
- It says something philosophically interesting.
- There are no logical fallacies.
- There is no plagiarism.
- The paper is on-topic.
- Forget about word counts, fonts, APA format, and all other 'peripheral' issues.

Does the paper get an "A?" Why or why not? — jasonm

Not necessarily. Logic and truth are not the same thing. A statement can be - or seem - logical but it may not be true.

Premise: Elephants fly.
Logic: Elephant poo falls from the sky.

Logical but not true. And that's one of the most difficult things about philosophy; the logic can be correct but a premise can have almost undetectable flaws.

I thought this was a boring idea for a discussion, but I was wrong. Interesting.

Welcome to the forum.

- There are very few (or no) syntactic mistakes.
- The ideas are clear and well-written.
- It says something philosophically interesting.
- There are no logical fallacies.
- There is no plagiarism.
- The paper is on-topic.
- Forget about word counts, fonts, APA format, and all other 'peripheral' issues. — jasonm

Only the second point is truly important. Maybe the fourth too, but that needs no mention. Say something interesting or new and you got a B is in the pocket.

As far as I know, never having taught, but from personal experience (in getting B's).

The Professor is not looking for the student to say something new in order to award an A

The Professor, knowing his subject inside out, having read every relevant paper, attended every germane conference, and after marking thousands of essays by bright-eyed and bushy-tailed students is not looking for new ideas when marking a paper, as the possibility of coming across a new idea is pretty remote. If the do come across an idea that it is new to them, then it is more than likely to be either wrong or nonsense.

All the professor is looking for is a workmanlike, well crafted, well written, logically argued, well researched essay that is relevant to the topic.

The Professor is not looking for an excellent paper by a budding Wittgenstein, just a good paper that he knows from his lifetime of experience is on the right lines.

So why does one student get an A and the others get B's if all that is needed is a good paper rather than an excellent one. Because the others trip themselves up, shoot themselves in the foot, make a balls of it, run around in circles and start up the creek without a paddle.

What this means in practice is that the others use convoluted language, don't answer the question, push their own philosophical ideas, use arguments where the conclusion doesn't follow from the premises, where their premises are opinions rather than being obviously true, where the essay isn't structured into a beginning, body and conclusion, where they don't make use of thesis, antithesis and synthesis, etc

IE, all the student needs to do to get an A is to write a half-decent essay and let the others mess it up.

Dude, I was all of 16 and it wasn't sexual favors. It was cookies! Made with love cookies but nothing he couldn't take home and share with his wife! — ArguingWAristotleTiff

I see. :up:

The problem still remains though. Cookies = Original, impressive, brainwork. You get an A either way. Professors aren't able to tell the difference between the two. Perhaps we should carry out a thorough investigation of the matter. Burglar alarms go off, unwanted thief or welcome guest.

I like this post by RusselA and would like to discuss it from back to front...

What this means in practice is that the others use convoluted language, don't answer the question, push their own philosophical ideas, use arguments where the conclusion doesn't follow from the premises, where their premises are opinions rather than being obviously true, where the essay isn't structured into a beginning, body and conclusion, where they don't make use of thesis, antithesis and synthesis, etc — RussellA

Yes, very true. This is often the case and one gets tired of it, because when you want to grade well, you do give feedback. So You have to point out al of this quickly because the time to grade is always too short.

So why does one student get an A and the others get B's if all that is needed is a good paper rather than an excellent one. Because the others trip themselves up, shoot themselves in the foot, make a balls of it, run around in circles and start up the creek without a paddle. — RussellA

Yes, but do not underestimate how hard it is to write a good paper. Writing is very difficult and an A is a very hard to obtain mark. Every writer 'makes a balls of it' at some point, prof or student and students have very little experience in writing. I hope I spot out students who genuinely gave blood sweat and tears to a paper and even if I mark it down, I hope to say something nice to them. So always look upon your students kindly, they are struggling individuals like all of us are.

The Professor is not looking for an excellent paper by a budding Wittgenstein, just a good paper that he knows from his lifetime of experience is on the right lines. — RussellA

Sure, in everyday grading that is true, but not totally, you always hope to spot the new Witty.

All the professor is looking for is a workmanlike, well crafted, well written, logically argued, well researched essay that is relevant to the topic. — RussellA

That is all he hopes for, and all that the criteria tend to desire, but not all he is looking for.

The Professor, knowing his subject inside out, having read every relevant paper, attended every germane conference, and after marking thousands of essays by bright-eyed and bushy-tailed students is not looking for new ideas when marking a paper, as the possibility of coming across a new idea is pretty remote. If the do come across an idea that it is new to them, then it is more than likely to be either wrong or nonsense. — RussellA

Yes, a new idea is pretty remote and a good prof tells his students that. Not to dash their hopes, but because philosophy (like law) is simply a difficult subject, of which you need knowledge to be able to say anything interesting. However, the divide between prof and student is not that wide as you make it out to be. It depends a bit on the prof of course, but many of them marking your papers are just struggling themselves. They als need to make sense of things, grapple, form their arguments etc. There are always students who surprise you and even if an idea has a hole in it and you spot it out, you can still admire it. From personal experience, when I see a paper and think "damn, I disagree with this, I have at least three counter arguments", I will look at it again and usually award it a high grade. A paper that makes me think about counter arguments does something, it 'works' even though I think it is wrong and yes that counts in the students favour.

A paper that makes me think about counter arguments does something, it 'works' even though I think it is wrong and yes that counts in the students favour. — Tobias

As someone searching for what makes an A, from what you say, in addition to being well written (something that can be learnt through careful study) the student should also put forward an original spark of an idea, a potential new insight into the topic under discussion

Even if they don't have time to fully develop it within the confines of a particular essay, and even though the idea may ultimately prove to be wrong, its development may lead into new knowledge.

IE, perhaps a willingness by the student to push the boundary of what is conventionally accepted, providing they are willing to rationally argue their case - (pushing the boundary infers that they have to be knowledgeable in the first place as to where the boundary is).

I see. :up:

The problem still remains though. Cookies = Original, impressive, brainwork. You get an A either way. Professors aren't able to tell the difference between the two. Perhaps we should carry out a thorough investigation of the matter. Burglar alarms go off, unwanted thief or welcome guest. — Agent Smith

Now those are ideas worth exploring! :blush:
My next semester starts in two weeks so I will have to see if there are any classes that I can't pull an "A" in.

As someone searching for what makes an A, from what you say, in addition to being well written (something that can be learnt through careful study) the student should also put forward an original spark of an idea, a potential new insight into the topic under discussion — RussellA

When grading you are usually bound by criteria. I often get to write them myself now though and I regularly put in a criterion for creativity or 'argumentation' which gives me some leeway to reward originality.

Even if they don't have time to fully develop it within the confines of a particular essay, and even though the idea may ultimately prove to be wrong, its development may lead into new knowledge. — RussellA

That is never my criterion for me, because it is way too much to expect. 'New knowledge' is really rare. I do reward promise, I would feel bad rewarding a paper that is all good, but just collors between the lines over a paper that does everything well and has that bit of extra spark that makes you think. Usually such a student holds promise and should be stimulated a bit.

IE, perhaps a willingness by the student to push the boundary of what is conventionally accepted, providing they are willing to rationally argue their case - (pushing the boundary infers that they have to be knowledgeable in the first place as to where the boundary is). — RussellA

And doing things well. There might be a great idea, but if it does not answer the question it goes down anyway. Even if you are the young Wittgensteiin, the job of the student is to think within the boundaries expected. That is primary, show you can combine different pre given ideas. Do that well and I cannot find fault it may even give you an A (depends on the criteria). However, I would like it better if you combine the ideas and on the basis of those ideas make an extra observation, provide a different perspective etc.

criterion for creativity......that bit of extra spark that makes you think......the job of the student is to think within the boundaries expected. That is primary, show you can combine different pre given ideas.............make an extra observation — Tobias

Does this lead to the requirement (definition) that "an undergraduate in writing a philosophy essay is not expected to develop new philosophical ideas but is expected to comment on existing philosophical ideas using reasoned and well-structured language, whilst including an original idea that makes the reader interested in thinking about the topic" ?

Out of curiosity, and I'm not asking for names, are there any forum members who you think would make A students. I realize that the format we work in is different from an academic paper. How does the writing and, more important, the quality of thought here compare to your classes?

Out of curiosity, and I'm not asking for names, are there any forum members who you think would make A students. I realize that the format we work in is different from an academic paper. How does the writing and, more important, the quality of thought here compare to your classes? — T Clark

That is very difficult to say because this is a much more free format. I would also not know how to compare people, because everybody writes about different topics. I cannot judge many topics, for instance anything analytical. Many here also outgrew their student years. I myself joined ages ago when I just finished my university studies. Now we are more than 20 years further on. When I joined I found it to be a very entertaining and knowledgable community and was in awe of several posters. The core still is, but quality varies enormously from thread to thread. Some are really high level others are not. T

This is not an academic level forum, that is really a couple of notches higher, but that is also an unfair criterion because I am writing much more freely for instance here and do not double check everything. Submitting an academic article is a far more arduous procedure. No doubt that many here use the forum in the same way, a nice way to joust and to learn different viewpoints quickly, share thoughts etc. What I do know is that some of the posters here, past or present have the capabilities to be full professors (I am not by the way I hold a lower rank). Some even hold that position now. So, some here will make brilliant students yes, if they would be students :)

Does this lead to the requirement (definition) that "an undergraduate in writing a philosophy essay is not expected to develop new philosophical ideas but is expected to comment on existing philosophical ideas using reasoned and well-structured language, whilst including an original idea that makes the reader interested in thinking about the topic" ? — RussellA

It sounds about right I guess, yeah...

It sounds about right I guess, yeah... — Tobias

:smile:

Thanks for your insight.