So again, what are your sources for this claim that your position is supported by an 'overwhelming consensus'? — Isaac
Aaron Ciechanover, an Israeli scientist and winner of the 2004 Nobel Prize in Chemistry, called on the population to trust the scientific consensus on COVID-19 vaccines.
He said that people’s reluctance to get vaccinated has been caused by preconceptions, misinformation, and opinions of leaders that go against the general consensus of the scientific community.
Indeed. Recently I've been listening to Vinay Prasad, Stefan Baral, Martin Kulldorff, Jay Bhattacharya, Norman Fenton, Pete Doshi, Paul Hunter... Or are they the 'wrong' experts? — Isaac
would you actually like to join Strang and his many colleagues around the world?
Recently I've been listening to Vinay Prasad, Stefan Baral, Martin Kulldorff, Jay Bhattacharya, Norman Fenton, Pete Doshi, Paul Hunter... Or are they the 'wrong' experts? — Isaac
Vaccines are safe and effective— there is a consensus on this. — Xtrix
This is exactly what I’m saying. — Xtrix
Do these experts claim the vaccines aren’t safe and effective? Probably not. — Xtrix
No patents, reminding of Salk's polio vaccine. I guess we'll see what comes of it. — jorndoe
Just those? — jorndoe
Vaccines are safe and effective— there is a consensus on this.
— Xtrix
As I said Amoxicillin is also safe and effective. Should I take that too? Being safe and effective is not sufficient justification to cover all the policies you advocate. — Isaac
I asked you for a non-media source for your claim that there's an 'overwhelming consensus' of scientists in favour of the policies you advocate. You've given me a media source showing that one scientist agrees with you. — Isaac
Do these experts claim the vaccines aren’t safe and effective? Probably not.
— Xtrix
No. Neither do I. Again, 'safe and effective' does not automatically lead to 'everyone ought to take them'. — Isaac
So in other words: we're losing the battle of education, knowledge, facts, information, communication, etc. Corporate media and social media (but I repeat myself) are leading more and more people into conspiracies and bogus beliefs and into silos. That is clear.
What to do about it? Use "incentives." Translation: rewards and punishments. When people behave like animals, treat them as such and that will work. Behaviorism prevails, in this case. Simple principles of classical and operant conditioning will be enormously effective.
There's a part of me that's very leery about all this, even though I think it's justified in this case, based on scientific and medical consensus/direction, but much like the analogy to the teenager coming home for curfew because she's afraid of "negative incentive," that's far from ideal. Best to have a child understand why the rule is in place to begin with, not simply to force compliance with threats.
[...]
And we certainly have a real issue in the United States. Our powerful corporate and political (but I repeat myself) masters, through their ownership and control of media and their infiltration of the education system, have really done a number on the populace. We're as divided and confused as ever.
[...]
Anyway -- if "incentives" is the way of the future, it'll lead to even more division and violence. But when half the country's behavior effects the other half and vice versa, something has to be done. This is a tough one -- but in the end I blame the 40 years of the neoliberal assault and the influential people who engineered it. This is what comes from putting greed above everything.
I wasn't advocating "policies," I was pointing out that irrationality abounds. — Xtrix
During a pandemic, when experts are encouraging taking the safe and effective vaccines, and people are refusing for irrational reasons (for the same reasons they believe in election fraud), I'd say that's a problem. That was my entire point. — Xtrix
Not interested in expanding on truisms. — Xtrix
I was pointing out something that anyone who isn't caught up in the "controversy" of vaccines would readily recognize. — Xtrix
It's not one scientist, it's thousands of scientists and doctors. — Xtrix
I stand by every word of that. — Xtrix
I'm sorry you continually want to make this about your bizarre vaccine obsession. — Xtrix
No you weren't. — Isaac
No it wasn't. — Isaac
Apparently the one group who stand to gain billions from everyone taking the vaccine are actively discouraging people from taking the vaccine — Isaac
No, it was definitely one scientist. — Isaac
So you stand by every word of an article bemoaning the fact that some (eligible) people haven't taken the vaccine, but it's not your position that everybody (eligible) should take the vaccine...? — Isaac
Some people think a silly thing about a medicine - that's where all our focus should be. — Isaac
and to think that here's me worried about something trivial like corporate greed among the largest transfer of wealth from the poor the world has ever seen, — Isaac
I quoted myself. But believe what you wish. — Xtrix
I’ve said repeatedly that they’re encouraging people to take the vaccine. But to you this means I’m saying they’re discouraging it. — Xtrix
No, it’s thousands of scientists. — Xtrix
I quoted one. — Xtrix
Some people are refusing the vaccine for irrational reasons. Many, in fact. This is what I’m talking about — Xtrix
This is a debating platform, if you're not prepared to debate, you're in the wrong place. — Isaac
I’ve said repeatedly that they’re encouraging people to take the vaccine. But to you this means I’m saying they’re discouraging it.
— Xtrix
No, it means your point is flawed. — Isaac
Corporate media may well be responsible for 'irrational thinking' but vaccine hesitancy is a terrible example of it because all it shows is that people do not follow corporate media. — Isaac
You made the claim that an 'overwhelming majority' of scientists supported your position. I just want to know where you got the numbers from, that's all — Isaac
thinly veiled attempt to get another "aren't non-vaxxers stupid" comment in by putting it in a new dress. — Isaac
So you've come onto a thread about Coronavirus, just to point out the general fact that lots of people are irrational. — Isaac
Just one more symptom (an important one) of a much wider problem of irrationality. — Xtrix
The pharmaceuticals have, in the space of just over a year, managed to take public funds and turn them into private patents that they've sold to over 80% of the population of the western world. — Isaac
New legislation is being passed which will make it harder for people to report on corporate malfeasance, and the left-wing has voluntarily gagged themselves from complaining about any wrongdoing for fear of undermining confidence in their products. — Isaac
Meanwhile, some nutjobs think the vaccine will turn them into a 5G transmitter because some Facebook page told them so.
Perhaps you could start by explaining why you think the latter is super important whilst the former is just old hat that there's not much point talking about. — Isaac
I don't think so. The money for the COVID-19 response came out of thin air. And now we have inflation. That's how that works. — frank
Corpoate malfeasance doesn't surprise me. In this case it would, because of how heavily it's been scrutinized. — Xtrix
When a majority of people, who identify with one of two major political parties, believe these things...that's not a minor issue anymore. And not very funny. — Xtrix
Corpoate malfeasance doesn't surprise me. In this case it would, because of how heavily it's been scrutinized.
— Xtrix
By whom? — Isaac
When a majority of people, who identify with one of two major political parties, believe these things...that's not a minor issue anymore. And not very funny.
— Xtrix
But they clearly don't. — Isaac
Many people are scared, many confused, many just incorrigible procrastinators. — Isaac
The list of those actually going along with the sort of irrational misinformation you're referring to is vanishingly small and, most importantly, have virtually no power at all. — Isaac
So why are so many hung up on this group? Why is so much hatred being stoked up for a small, easily defeated straw-enemy which never had any real power, whilst those with real power continue to rake it in whilst you look the other way? — Isaac
There are properly powerful people making enormous amounts of money at the expense of oppressing an increasingly subjugated working class. They don't give a shit about a few nutjobs, but they sure as hell give a shit about making sure that's the only thing you're thinking about. — Isaac
don't think so. The money for the COVID-19 response came out of thin air. And now we have inflation. That's how that works.
— frank
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/oct/07/covid-19-crisis-boosts-the-fortunes-of-worlds-billionaires
It's not all to do with government stimulus and investment money.
9h — Isaac
By the scientific and medical communities, and by the general public. I've yet to hear anything significant in this regard. I asked for what you were referring to and got nothing, so there's that as well. — Xtrix
Yes, they do — Xtrix
I think you're underestimating the percentage who are refusing for irrational reasons because of the information they consume. — Xtrix
I'd say it's no coincidence that those who profess vaccine "skepticism" or refusal, and those who claim the election was stolen, happen to be majority Republican — Xtrix
There's no mystery as to why that is, all you have to do is take a look at the media they consume. Which was my point. — Xtrix
I'm against the private medical and pharmaceutical companies, etc. But that has nothing to do with whether the product, no matter if it's Viagra or the vaccines, are safe and effective. — Xtrix
You're downplaying the significance of vaccine refusal, which is significant. You're downplaying the role of social media-drive irrationality, which is significant. — Xtrix
you're trying to find something that simply isn't there when it comes to these companies which have produced the vaccines. — Xtrix
I think the bigger issue, until evidence points elsewhere, is the large number of unvaccinated people refusing vaccines because of their information bubbles. — Xtrix
If you think there'd be this level of refusal 30 years ago, prior to the anti-vax movement and prior to Facebook/Twitter/YouTube, etc — Xtrix
You seemed to be assuming the world's money supply is fixed so that if billionaires get richer, it must have been a transfer of wealth from poor people. Did you not assume that? — frank
Even the formal model, the Nairu (the non-accelerating inflation rate of unemployment) allows that people begin to expect prices to keep going up so you get an inflation in the general level of prices that undermines purchasing power. — Isaac
You seemed to be assuming the world's money supply is fixed so that if billionaires get richer, it must have been a transfer of wealth from poor people. Did you not assume that? — frank
Yes, to a degree. — Isaac
Isaac. You assumed if billionaires get richer, the money must have transferred from poor people, and thus made the astonishing assertion that the COVID response was the single largest shift in wealth from poor to rich in history. You'll have to back that up with facts. — frank
You're clearly a well informed person in general. Has the whole debate passed you by. It was all over the editorials of the BMJ for months. The Editor in Chief there wrote directly to the FDA about it...but for you, a non-story? — Isaac
If you want to support an argument that the numbers are significant, then give me the numbers. — Isaac
And no, 'the majority of vaccine deniers are Republican' is not the same as 'The majority of Republican's are vaccine deniers'. — Isaac
Your claim that "a majority of people, who identify with one of two major political parties, believe these things" is not supported by your evidence that "unvaccinated, and those polled who say they will never or probably not be vaccinated, are mostly Republicans" Do you see the difference? — Isaac
According to Gallup, 40% of Republicans “don’t plan” to get vaccinated, versus 26% of Independents and just 3% of Democrats.
There's no mystery as to why that is, all you have to do is take a look at the media they consume. Which was my point.
— Xtrix
Again, your 'point' is flawed. — Isaac
The media they consume is wholly owned by rich corporations. The same rich corporations who have made more money than they've ever made out of this crisis including the profits and share hikes from the vaccine. — Isaac
Why, that would only work if the group who'd been fed the pro-vaccine line spent all their time focussing on the group who'd been fed the anti-vaccine line so that the people in charge of both messages can bring in even more money without anyone paying them the slightest attention at all. But hey, who'd be daft enough to fall for that...again? — Isaac
You're downplaying the significance of vaccine refusal, which is significant. You're downplaying the role of social media-drive irrationality, which is significant.
— Xtrix
Well, then show me the significance. Your word obviously isn't good enough. Where are your numbers and measures of effect? — Isaac
you're trying to find something that simply isn't there when it comes to these companies which have produced the vaccines.
— Xtrix
Yet earlier you were saying that you might have missed it. Which is it? It isn't there, or you haven't looked? — Isaac
I think the bigger issue, until evidence points elsewhere, is the large number of unvaccinated people refusing vaccines because of their information bubbles.
— Xtrix
What problem is it causing? — Isaac
If you think there'd be this level of refusal 30 years ago, prior to the anti-vax movement and prior to Facebook/Twitter/YouTube, etc
— Xtrix
I don't. I think Facebook/Twitter/YouTube are responsible for an enormous amount of the problem we face. I'm just not so stupid as to think they only stoke one side. — Isaac
I have many times on this thread and others. It’s all over the papers and polling. Republicans, Trump voting districts, evangelical Christians, etc — all much more likely to refuse the vaccine. — Xtrix
A majority of Republicans believe these things, yes. Both statements say the same thing. — Xtrix
According to Gallup, 40% of Republicans “don’t plan” to get vaccinated, versus 26% of Independents and just 3% of Democrats.
Brookings
So a large minority of Republicans are unvaccinated — Xtrix
You've repeatedly been corrected about this. — Xtrix
No, they are not the same corporations. Believe it or not, but media conglomerates and large pharmaceutical companies have different interests, despite both being part of corporate America. — Xtrix
I'm talking about the last 30 years of undermining the institutions of academia, science, medicine. That has mostly come from conservative media, accelerated in our time by social media. — Xtrix
If you don't think 70 million people is significant, you're not paying attention. — Xtrix
In order for herd immunity to be achieved, the numbers should be in the 80s at least. — Xtrix
given that you already accept that vaccines are safe and effective, I don't understand what you're driving at. — Xtrix
See above. The more people vaccinated, the better. Less people get sick, less people spread the disease, the symptoms are milder, less hospitalizations, etc. Good for everyone. — Xtrix
Why do you think doctors are recommending the vaccines so much? We're in a pandemic and we have safe and effective vaccines, and so those who are eligible should take them. Fairly simple — Xtrix
Media influences many people. — Xtrix
Should people start refusing to take amoxicillin when told to by a doctor, I think the example would be relevant. — Xtrix
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