"Schutz uses painting as a means to invent things which just can’t exist in any other genre. In Chris’s Rubber Soul, she uses two-dimensional medium to create a sculpture: half archaic technology, half totemic fetish. Bound by no other logic than its own representation, Schutz offers a form for no other reason that its own contemplation, of beauty, humour, plausibility and possible function." — Saatchi
It has created an uproar in the art community. Many suggesting that this is the worst kind of cultural appropiation, where the artist makes fun & profits off their work at the expense of the black people's suffering. — Cavacava
I can say for myself that prior to reading this thread, I was unaware of the Till tragedy, which means that but for Shutz' cultural appropriation or whatever it should be called, I would not now be educated. Surely there is some value in that. — Hanover
I welcome those of all colors and stripes to produce art depicting the horrors of the holocaust. — Hanover
She agrees that she does not know what it is like to be black in America, but she said she does understand what is to be a mother. — Cavacava
The activists protesting a “racist” kimono exhibit in Boston in 2015 ignored the Japanese-Americans who loved it. Today, the charge against “Open Casket” is led by a Berlin-based artist born in England to an Irish-Caribbean father and a Russian Jewish refugee mother (whose probably could have told her a thing or two about the dangers of ideological diktat in art). Yet Black, whose American experience is mostly limited to two years in an art program at the Whitney, feels entitled to speak for black Americans supposedly hurt by Schutz’s work — African-Americans like Goldberg, or Michael Edgill, the 29-year-old teacher attending the exhibition who told The Daily Beast that “there’s only one race: human.”
You do make up a minority should you think of the Palestinian subject. I am completely neutral, anti-racist and my only concern is human rights and not politics, and having returned from Israel not too long ago, I learnt that as an outsider discussions on the subject was often viewed antagonistically, except in Tel Aviv. I care about the Jews, trust me on that, but I also care about the Palestinians. So, what does it mean to care? — TimeLine
What this means is that you wish to interject a non-sequitur regarding Israeli/Palestinian relations into the question of whether one should be opposed to the Holocaust. As you may realize (but maybe not), it's entirely possible to feel unmitigated sympathy to the Jewish victims of the Holocaust and still side with the Palestinians in the current Israeli situation. — Hanover
*sigh*And so, back to what I said, in the hopes that you'll clarify what appears to be anti-Semitic comment. — Hanover
I am completely neutral, anti-racist and my only concern is human rights and not politics — TimeLine
I would embrace anyone who creates art expressing opposition to the Holocaust. That you might wish to say that you stand by Jews in the Holocaust, but you want to be very clear that you don't like them always, isn't terribly laudable or necessary, and it's unclear why that clarification needed to be made to my uncontroversial comments regarding the horror of the Holocaust. — Hanover
Even though I said:
I am completely neutral, anti-racist and my only concern is human rights and not politics
— TimeLine — TimeLine
Sorry buddy, it was your so-called 'deep thinking' that led to an accusation of anti-Semitism and holocaust denial. If you cannot see just how ridiculous you were, I suggest you take some multivitamins or whatever that may assist in better cognitive function.I realize you self declared this, but I was questioning it obviously. All I said in my post was that I'd stand by those who stood by me in their opposition to the holacaust, and you then started talking about injustice in Palestine. If you can't see why that might be construed as anti-Semetic, then maybe think a little deeper. — Hanover
Perhaps, but take a look at it from my perspective. I told you that I just came back from Israel and that contrary to your opinion would not be the case for many others; in line of the OP that meant that there is reason behind the controversy she is experiencing. Spitting out venomous notions of 'anti-Semitism' and holocaust denial to anything and everything is embarrassing and shameful.If a Muslim were beaten to death for being Muslim and a Muslim poster expressed gratitude for non-Muslim support for the victim, do you think me bringing up the topic of Muslim terrorism would be in order? Do you really think it'd matter if I just said "Oh btw I'm not racist, so don't take this the wrong way"? — Hanover
Spitting out venomous notions of 'anti-Semitism' and holocaust denial to anything and everything is embarrassing and shameful — TimeLine
Schultz denies that it was her reason for the creation and she says she will never sell it. She agrees that she does not know what it is like to be black in America, but she said she does understand what is to be a mother. — Cavacava
How was I anti-semitic? By saying that you are in a minority of Jewish people who would appreciate art that depicts the holocaust from those who are non-Jewish? I will concede, my response lacked clarity on a touchy subject that causes reactions and I should have been more vigilant, but blimey, I never anticipated your reaction. When people like you assume such negative opinions and rather immediately throw out the term 'anti-Semitic' for an unjustified cause, it is accusing anyone for anything and everything. You didn't think your accusation through and even you were aware of your doubts, so nice try.I also don't recall accusing anyone of ant-Semitism for anything and everything. I accused you specifically of it because you were. It was just an observation. — Hanover
No, you mentioned art depiction of Jewish victimisation by non-Jewish artists and how you would welcome it, and I responded by saying you are in a minority. I knew it was a touchy thing to say, so I tried to clarify by showing that I experienced some negative reactions as a neutral outsider. I never said Jews were oppressors and this is precisely the purpose of my initial post, that sensitive topics always bring out and highlight reactions such as yours. You can assume my saying I am neutral and a human rights advocate that does not involve herself in politics to be merely a tool to covert my anti-semitism, but you are a fool for thinking that. End of story.What happened is that I noted an instance of unambiguous Jewish victimization and you felt it necessary to insert an instance where you felt Jews were oppressors as if it added anything at all to the conversation. — Hanover
The issue is the fictionalization of reality. Does, can, ought any work of art come close to representing the reality it is supposed to portrait? Isn't there a danger in fictionalization of what has occurred, in that it may not convey the harshness of the reality that it's supposed to represent, instead it may suggest a stance that is far removed from being honest to its origin, as TimeLine and mcdoodle seem to suggest. — Cavacava
The "meaning" which lies within a work of art is often vague, ambiguous, or obscure, art often being of an abstract nature. The meaning is a representation of the artist's intent, what was meant by the artist. I don't think it is appropriate, or correct, to say that the meaning of the art is a "fictionalization of reality", it is more like an obscured reality. The artist may take a little piece of reality and, with the use of obscurity, attempt to create a wide range of meaning from that little piece of reality. Through the use of obscurity, the artist allows one's own intentions to be interpreted in many different ways. What the art means to me, and what the art means to you, may be completely different, due to that use of obscurity.
("How She Sent Him and How She Got Him Back" is a much better work of art though imo
In addition, art is also desirable, beautiful. It is a movement, perhaps, to challenge that stereotype. Her brush strokes - so thick and almost distorted - I feel is a great depiction of the confusion I felt when I saw the image, almost like I quickly looked away because of the abhorrence and her image represents that quickness. But, it is also colourful. The picture is not and that representation - whilst perhaps showing love - is probably not appropriate.
What a work means as you indicate may be abstract and obscure, but that is not what draws us to the work. What draws us to it is its aesthetic, the affect of its surface. The "meaning" of a work of art is I think secondary, and perhaps incidental to its affect, to its aesthetic. Music can be an example of pure affect. — Cavacava
The artistic portrayal of reality must be fictive, it is not the actual experience, not the actual apple, not the actual body in the casket, but rather the way or manner of narrative that enables a unique view of reality. The problem with this is that the aesthetic itself can be bias, prejudice, unjust, but very effective in seducing its viewers/readers/hearers by its affect, which is why propaganda (and rhetoric) can be powerful. — Cavacava
I assumed that the colours symbolised innocence just like the little girl in the red dress in Schindlers List. A child-like purity. But the difference is that symbol was represented in the moving image because it ameliorated the horror surrounding her symbol - that all the victims were innocent as she was - which is why paintings may be inadequate when discussing such horrors and the impact the violence has not just to the victim and his family, but to all those who belong within the social and political problem itself. It is no longer about the victim and thus more than just a mothers love in the eyes of those who claim authority.Perhaps Schultz's painting depicts the mother's view of her son, where he remained beautiful to her in spite of his brutal disfigurement, and horrendous death. She sees past the surface disfigurement to her remembrance of her son is all his innocence, the smiling boy we see in the photo prior to this heinous act. The passionately colored flower, symbolizing love. — Cavacava
I think it's not so easy to separate the meaning from the aesthetic. When we look at art, we take it for granted that it was created by an artist, so that premise of meaning is inherent within the aesthetic of the art. I don't know about you, but I look at a natural beauty in a completely different way from an artificial beauty, because the skill and technique of the artist is always in my mind when I look at art. I'm usually looking at "what the artist did" so I'm looking more at the meaning than at the aesthetic. Being a musician myself, I find this to be especially the case with music, so your example is lost on me.
In most cases, I don't think an artist is trying to portray reality, so art in general is neither actual nor fictive, it's something completely different. The more abstract the art is, the more "different" it is. The "affect" which you refer to is just what the individuals of the audience get out of the art. So it's not the case that the artist is actively seducing you, you are allowing yourself to be "affected". You do not have to allow yourself to be so affected, you can ignore the art. Think of a logical argument, if it's very bad, you will not be affected by it at all, but if it's good, you may be affected by it. Even if it's good though, you can still choose to ignore it.
No, the point is, however, that the Jews are sensitive to anything about the topic of Israel and Palestine together with the Holocaust and the concept of 'outsiders' is fairly strong, which is why I mentioned that he was in the minority. I agree that I perhaps was not clear, but my recent experience in the country made me think that - like the OP - controversy around the artist not being African-American and therefore not having the authority to paint the subject would be the same in Israeli culture, which is tied closely to the Holocaust. To be called anti-Semitic for saying that? That is just insane, whether what I said was out of the blue or not.And I have to admit that though I do not think you intended this, that one fair interpretation was that Jews are to blame for the suffering of Palestinians and therefore we shouldn't have compassion for the Holocaust. — Moliere
I think it is, only because of the above mentioned complexity and sensitivity, but certainly it must be carefully explored. Clarity that I am not anti-Semitic would need to be understood and avoided. Otherwise, certainly, the subject frustrates me on many fronts. Including, for instance, appreciating the philosophy of authors who are 'bad' and so, though they write really good theories, because they have done bad things in their life, their authority on the subject is shaken.I do think that the ethics of insider/outsider is worth exploring. But maybe the Palestinian-Israeli conflict isn't the best ground in which to explore it? — Moliere
The reason for sensitivity among Jews for issues related to the Holocaust isn't complicated and ought to be screamingly obvious. The reasons you are being treated as an outsider and not as a fellow Jew are admittedly vast, but, to the extent you lack empathy for the Jews for what occurred during the Holocaust, that will keep you more securely outside than everyone else.No, the point is, however, that the Jews are sensitive to anything about the topic of Israel and Palestine together with the Holocaust and the concept of 'outsiders' is fairly strong, which is why I mentioned that he was in the minority. — TimeLine
Can you explain why this is so. I think Lisa Whittington's painting is much closer to conveying the horrendous brutality of what happened to Emmett Till, for sure — Cavacava
1.
Specifically, the Palestinians, even if considered wholly right and unfairly oppressed by the Israelis, are not experiencing systematic slaughter with an express aim to eliminate them genetically. They are not placed in workcamps and forced to labor until death. They are not starved to death and thrown into mass graves. That is, should I accept the Palestinian position in its most extreme form, the Holocaust is disanalagous as a matter of historical fact. That you can't see that says to me that your empathy toward Jews is minimal. — Hanover
Art's aesthetic draws us to the work, the work's matter by way of its form strikes us (or not) as part of narratives that we understand. The value we give to of a work of art lies is in how we experience that work, which can be intimated but not fully explicated. I think great art has an enigmatic aspect, a remainder, something which can't be explained. At the same time our experience of a work of art follows the coherence and logic of the work, regardless of the intent of the artist. — Cavacava
I disagree to the extent that whatever the work portrays is its reality, how it communicates and what it has to say is largely derivative of the society and culture that nurtured the artist. A good argument can be wrong, it can be knowingly wrong as in sophistry. — Cavacava
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