Why even these tiniest living things have that Will to keep on existing? — dimosthenis9

No will involved, just evolution by natural selection. Some strains of the virus are more resistant to the vaccines than others just by chance. Those resistant strains continue to spread and infect people. Other strains, that are not resistant, die out.

More fundamental to the question of whether a virus has a will to live is whether viruses are ever alive at all. https://microbiologysociety.org/publication/past-issues/what-is-life/article/are-viruses-alive-what-is-life.html

Covid doesn't want to exist. It's not mutating deliberately. It's all chance. (Viral) DNA is inherently unstable and so variants are no cause for wonder.

However, what's intriguing is if I were a virus, I would've done exactly what the virus is doing - mutate and increase the odds of my survival. It's as if the virus has a(n) (invisible) brain that's strategizing, thinking about what's its next best move. SETI is gonna have a tough time looking for intelligent aliens if even entities whose status as a living organism is in question (viruses) can simulate intelligence. Maybe viruses, in a certain sense, pass the Turing test.

Of course viruses are alive. They are nast little blobs, though very altruistic in a way: they want new nasty blobs to come into existence, while they could just as well have floated away to relax together on a foreign virus beach. Because of their damned altruism we are stuck with them.

Very interesting article. I always had the belief that viruses are alive indeed. As I see now it's an open issue. Though even from the article I was more convinced by the "alive argument". But gave me more doubts.

So these strains were there from the very beginning? Since "virus birth"?? And just some of them die and others survive? Haven't these strains developed afterwards as an effort from the virus to survive?

T Clark nailed it as usual. One subtle but important point: mutations occur between generations, not within an individual's lifetime. Will is persuant to an individual: evolution is not.

It's as if the virus has a(n) (invisible) brain that's strategizing, thinking about what's its next best move. — Agent Smith

That's more or less the core of my question. Seems really weird to me indeed. Though it might be a biological scientific issue that I m not aware of

It's as if the virus has a(n) (invisible) brain that's strategizing, thinking about what's its next best move.
— Agent Smith

That's more or less the core of my question. — dimosthenis9

Just like a computer can win a chess game. No will needs apply.

Will is persuant to an individual: evolution is not. — Kenosha Kid

I get what you mean but I don't use Will here with the typical philosophical meaning we give to it . I should have clarified it from the beginning.

I mostly mean something like Agent Smith said. Like a primal mechanism of making the virus "decide" to go on existing. To include the information as "to know what to do" as to keep existing. If that makes more sense.

Just like a computer can win a chess game — Olivier5

Yeah but a computer is manufactured by a living creature. Humans. Virus is already alive. Though from the Hanover's article I see that many doubt that is alive from the very beginning.

Like a primal mechanism of making the virus "decide" to go on existing. To include the information as "to know what to do" as to keep existing. If that makes more sense. — dimosthenis9

It's common to use terminology like this as a shorthand or metaphor even among scientists, especially scientific communicators. But one shouldn't take the metaphor as then being literal.

Evolution of any species or virus is an optimisation procedure. There is a space to explore (RNA), a source of noise (genetic mutation), usually a mixing procedure (e.g. sexual reproduction), and a feedback from the environment that effectively ascribes a fitness to each individual.

It's a very passive, dumb procedure that you can simulate on a computer very easily* (at least for simple models) but one capable of incredible flexibility, resilience and complexity.

*In my first job after leaving academia, I wrote an algorithm that tracked mobile phones around supermarkets. This consisted of 1000 candidates each with a unique state akin to DNA (position, orientation, various device biases), a source of noise akin to mutation (small additions of pseudo random numbers added to state variables), a combination procedure akin to sexual reproduction (the next 1000 states drawn probabilistically from the probability distribution of the previous 1000), and environmental feedback akin to survival fitness (closeness of phone magnetometer and WiFi strength measurements to objective mappings) that would alter the probability of a candidate spawning offspring. The result looked like the candidate cloud had a purpose: it moved around the store very confidently after initial catastrophes killed most of the initial candidates, stopping wherever I had stopped, turning around when I had done... But it all came from about 500 lines of very straightforward Python code. Of course, we talked about the cloud pausing at the hot sauce shelf, moving on, then changing its mind and going back for that hot sauce... It's a good, metaphorical narrative technique. But really it was just state and noise exploring a particular state space and dying off when it didn't fit the environment any more.

The appearance of will and purpose and design in evolution is the same. It's a foot in the door to understanding the mechanics through metaphor, especially in large state spaces and complex environments that are otherwise difficult to grasp. But at heart it's just dumb numbers doing dumb things according to statistics and feedback mechanisms.

Really, DNA is always trying to end its miserable existence, and eventually, almost all strains and strands achieve this. What we see and what we are, are the few remaining bits that have not managed to get off the roundabout of reproduction. Thank goodness intelligence has evolved to the point where it can make the whole planet hostile to life at last.

The appearance of will and purpose and design in evolution is the same. It's a foot in the door to understanding the mechanics through metaphor, especially in large state spaces and complex environments that are otherwise difficult to grasp. But at heart it's just dumb numbers doing dumb things according to statistics and feedback mechanisms — Kenosha Kid

So in general, if I got it right, your point is that as everything, viruses variants are just an automatical mechanical procedure and includes no transmission of any kind of information as to go on existing?Right?

So in general, if I got it right, your point is that as everything, viruses variants are just an automatical mechanical procedure and includes no transmission of any kind of information as to go on existing?Right? — dimosthenis9

No, state is an example of information, reproduction an example of transmission. But none of that requires a will. Your computer does this well enough without a will of its own. (In before, "But computers only do as we tell them, which is will!": Most computer users are oblivious to how information is stored and transmitted but can still operate them fine. They are not "willing" messages around circuits, and yet that happens.)

Viruses have wills too. The will to enter cells and inject their mRNA into our cells, propagates the little buggers, so their offspring can live. There is no will to kill us, so they can't be blamed. It's this will that propates all material processes. All matter is literally charged to interact. This will translates in interaction. Viruses have been around pretty long and their mode of being apparently pays off.

So these strains were there from the very beginning? Since "virus birth"?? And just some of them die and others survive? Haven't these strains developed afterwards as an effort from the virus to survive? — dimosthenis9

Variations in the virus strains develop as the result of random genetic mutations which take place on a continuous basis. Some mutations have no significant effect, some have negative consequences for the organism, and some have a positive effect.

Covid variations are nothing more than a desperate effort of the virus to survive. — dimosthenis9

This may very well be the best discussion ever proposed in the history of reality.

It will probably be deleted soon.

So let's not talk about complex creatures like humans and animals. Let's talk about the tiniest forms of life(bacteria, virus. etc) and here are the questions — dimosthenis9

A star has a life cycle that not only creates and destroys entire galaxies but apparently (allegedly) creates what we call life itself. So how can we not talk about all understandings of what life and energy is. Just because you can't detect the thoughts or understand or decode them doesn't mean they don't exist.

This may very well be the best discussion ever proposed in the history of reality.

It will probably be deleted soon. — Outlander

Why you think it will be deleted?

So how can we not talk about all understandings of what life and energy is. Just because you can't detect the thoughts or understand or decode them doesn't mean they don't exist. — Outlander

Sorry I didn't get what you mean. I just wanted to focus on tiny forms of life as viruses and bacteria and its way of keep existing. Can you clarify it?

Variations in the virus strains develop as the result of random genetic mutations which take place on a continuous basis. Some mutations have no significant effect, some have negative consequences for the organism, and some have a positive effect. — T Clark

Why but these random genetic mutations seem to serve the purpose of existence. Right? I mean why to serve that purpose from the very beginning? I think your point is that it doesn't serve any purpose at all. It just happens right? I can't disagree .Not having a real argument against it.

But if you see it in large scale and not individually, the purpose of the variations of let's say the general "population of Covid viruses" (same with humankind genes) seems to be to keep staying alive. The purpose of this evolution procedure is to keep existing. Keep living. Seems to me like a "force" pushing towards there.

Of course the most possible scenario is to be wrong but my mind could never fully be convinced by that random thing of evolution. Though it might be the truth indeed.

But if you see it in large scale and not individually, the purpose of the variations of let's say the general "population of Covid viruses" (same with humankind genes) seems to be to keep staying alive. The purpose of this evolution procedure is to keep existing. Keep living. Seems to me like a "force" pushing towards there. — dimosthenis9

Some genetic strains survive and some don't, which leads to changes in the species, i.e. evolution. Changes in the population of organisms over time are the effect of the process, not the purpose. Evolution has no drive, direction, purpose, or force.

But computers only do as we tell them, which is will!": M — Kenosha Kid

Well no it is not will. But still I could never accept these comparisons with computers. Computers are children of the human mind. An alive creature and its mind manufactured them. But computers aren't alive.
I got what you mean and the analogy you use here. But though there are many similarities sometimes I can't accept them working exactly the same.

Evolution has no drive, direction, purpose, or force. — T Clark

Yeah I figured it out you believed so. And told you I have no argument to bring against that. It might be the case indeed.

DNA is always trying to end its miserable existence, and eventually, almost all strains and strands achieve this. — unenlightened

That's true indeed?DNA tries to "kill itself"? Is it scientific proven or you use it as a metaphor? It's not ironic question . I'm just curious, I was never aware of such thing.

That's true indeed?DNA tries to "kill itself"? — dimosthenis9

No. It's not true. It doesn't even mean anything.

Brothers and sisters, let's hold hands and pray! Let's jointly say thanks to our great Divine Creators. Let's worship in collective unity the Great Fathers of Eternal Glorified Potentiality. Say us the hail to the Just Powers of Desoxy, Ribo, Nucleid, and the Mighty Acid. Show them our unconditional faith, blind submission, and unquenchable longing, and bear us witness to the powers of their Creative Conduct, leading our humble bodies, in Their Fruitful Holy Helix, to be their diminutive followers and obedient followers. Let's adorn and embellish with words our Magnificent Makers and may they be allocated Blessing Eternal. All hail to the Quintessential Quartet, praise their names! ADENINE GUANINE! CYTOSINE! THYMINE! Now go forth all and procreate in their name.

It's as if the virus has a(n) (invisible) brain that's strategizing, thinking about what's its next best move.
— Agent Smith

That's more or less the core of my question. Seems really weird to me indeed. Though it might be a biological scientific issue that I m not aware of — dimosthenis9

Yep, the question then is what is intelligence? It can't be acting in ways to maximize returns, minimize losses - even unthinking nature does that without the aid of a single neuron.

Is it, mirable dictu, that what we call stupidity - inefficiency, poor business skills so to speak - is true intelligence?

Seems like it, no? What has a brilliant bloke done which nature, mindless chance, hasn't already/is in the process of perfected/perfecting? It's the idiot's work that stands out as unique (enough to define intelligence, assuming a brain is part of that definition).

There's a (good) reason why people believe in Intelligent Design (ID).

:chin:

That's true indeed? — dimosthenis9

No, it is ironic parody. DNA has no aim, no feelings no awareness and makes no effort to achieve anything. But it is entirely natural for the human mind to treat the world as animated. It is just part of the way understanding works in a highly social species. So one tends to find that the volcano god is angry when the volcano erupts, and the river god is bountiful when it irrigates the fields, and the sea god is angry when the storm arises. The DNA god trying to make clever monkeys or whatever, is the continuation of this social minded understanding of nature.

People talk about 'the virus trying to survive and adapt' but if you care to put any virus under the microscope and watch it, you will see that it does exactly nothing. It just sits there until it falls apart. but one thinks of covid as a single united being that is an enemy of the people, and scheming to evade the tactics of humanity, in the same way as one thinks of a hurricane as some kind of malevolent entity, rather than the momentary random swirl of atmosphere that it is is. This 'convenient'.

Why is it thought that intelligence is used to maximize, be it offspring, efficiency, survival, or whatever? Does the virus really acts to immortalize its genes? To maximize its lifespan? I doubt it. It's us who project.

it does exactly nothing. It just sits there until it falls apart — unenlightened

But for example with vaccinations when you "fight" the virus. It responds right? Some variations have much more resistance to vaccines. Trying to "fight back" and keep existing. Doesn't it change as to keep existing?
If it did nothing at all why not just fall apart from the first place? Doesn't that response indicates something? Maybe it doesn't but I don't know I find it weird.