So science is untrustworthy.
— Xtrix
Science is an activity, not an institution. — Isaac
But it’s been undermined for political reasons.
— Xtrix
What political reasons? What have the Republicans got to gain from vaccine hesitancy? — Isaac
That underlining problem is a systematic, deliberate erosion of trust in science and expertise.
— Xtrix
Right. So a minority of people not trusting science and expertise is a monster for the powers that be? Why? What have they got to lose from that state of affairs? — Isaac
You've not linked any of this to a 'problem' yet. What's the problem that's being caused by this minority not trusting scientists? — Isaac
Go on... If the Republican doctors are not mislead then how do you support your claim that a majority of Republicans are mislead? — Isaac
Are you claiming that doctors are somehow immune from the forces of misinformation that mislead all other Republicans? — Isaac
If so, then what's their secret? — Isaac
...vaccines...
Republicans gain if people take vaccines (the whole thing was developed on their watch). Industry gains if people take vaccines (by the billions of dollars), the most powerful lobby in the world is pushing for it and most countries (US included) are falling into line with increasingly draconian measure to make it impossible not to be vaccinated). So where's the problem here? — Isaac
Vaccination is, without a shadow of a doubt, as well supported by the industrial and legal system as guns, fossil fuels and vote gerrymandering. Yet you're trying to paint them as the victims here. The poor oppressed pharmaceuticals who no-one trusts, how will they ever sell their products now, with so little trust. — Isaac
What lengths countries like the US go because of less than a million deaths in couple of years because of such a puny pandemic. A mere two thousand deaths per a million! Or even less. The Spanish Flu had killed tens times more by now.Yes, it’s a state-managed collectivist economy through-and-through, and the current seizure is only evidence of how far it is willing to go. But forcing businesses to limit capacity, to enforce mandates, to close early, to adopt shifting policies, to collect subsidies, to outlaw dancing, gathering, walking to the bathroom without a mask etc. is unprecedented, especially in countries that haven’t quite swallowed the socialist pill yet. — NOS4A2
You're saying it's untrustworthy, apparently as both. — Xtrix
That's like asking what they have to gain for going along with the election lies. Their constituents believe it -- a large number of them -- and so they cater to them. — Xtrix
The connection to politics is obvious. — Xtrix
For the corporate powers, people don't fall in line even when the message is legitimate, as with vaccines. — Xtrix
I'd say it's no coincidence that those who profess vaccine "skepticism" or refusal, and those who claim the election was stolen, happen to be majority Republican. There's no mystery as to why that is, all you have to do is take a look at the media they consume. Which was my point. — Xtrix
Believing nonsense leads to very real and very damaging actions -- whether regarding the environment, or food, or drugs, or vaccines, or free elections. — Xtrix
A majority of Republicans claim the election was stolen -- does that mean a majority of Republican doctors believe the election was stolen? Not necessarily. — Xtrix
Their "secret" is that they've studied medicine. So education, I guess? At least when it comes to medical misinformation. — Xtrix
Ask Trump, who was booed by his crowd when he said "Take the vaccine, it's good," what he stands to lose. He quickly pivoted to nonsense about "freedom." That's what the Republicans have to lose: their voters. — Xtrix
Vaccination is, without a shadow of a doubt, as well supported by the industrial and legal system as guns, fossil fuels and vote gerrymandering. Yet you're trying to paint them as the victims here. The poor oppressed pharmaceuticals who no-one trusts, how will they ever sell their products now, with so little trust. — Isaac
?
How strange. — Xtrix
Their "secret" is that they've studied medicine. So education, I guess? At least when it comes to medical misinformation... — Xtrix
The groundwork for the crisis was laid in the 1980s, when pain increasingly became recognized as a problem that required adequate treatment. US states began to pass intractable pain treatment acts, which removed the threat of prosecution for physicians who treated their patients’ pain aggressively with controlled substances. — Nature - Tracing the US opioid crisis to its roots
In the United States, the idea that opioids might be safer and less addictive than was previously thought began to take root. A letter to the editor in the New England Journal of Medicine in 1980 reported that of 11,882 hospitalized people who were prescribed opioids, only four became addicted, but the short letter provided no evidence to back up these claims. A widely cited 1986 study, involving only 38 people, advocated using opioids to treat chronic pain unrelated to cancer. The prevailing view is that these studies were over-interpreted. But at the time, they contributed to the perception that opioids were addictive only when used recreationally — and not when used to treat pain. — Nature - Tracing the US opioid crisis to its roots
Purdue Pharma and other companies promoted their opioid products heavily. They lobbied lawmakers, sponsored continuing medical-education courses, funded professional and patient organizations and sent representatives to visit individual doctors. During all of these activities, they emphasized the safety, efficacy and low potential for addiction of prescription opioids. — Nature - Tracing the US opioid crisis to its roots
In fact, opioids are not particularly effective for treating chronic pain; with long-term use, people can develop tolerance to the drugs and even become more sensitive to pain. And the claim that OxyContin was less addictive than other opioid painkillers was untrue — Purdue Pharma knew that it was addictive, as it admitted in a 2007 lawsuit that resulted in a US$635 million fine for the company. — Nature - Tracing the US opioid crisis to its roots
Doctors didn’t question what they were told by pharmaceutical representatives and on continuing medical education courses about prescription opioids, in part because of a lack of experience
Because many doctors are in private practice, they can benefit financially by increasing the volume of patients that they see, as well as by ensuring patient satisfaction, which can incentivize the overprescription of pain medication.
The incentives were there for people to prescribe more and more, particularly when they had already been convinced it was the right thing to do — Nature - Tracing the US opioid crisis to its roots
Doctors are routinely overprescribing—giving every patient a bottle of 30-60 highly addictive opioid tablets. Most commonly this is oxycodone written with instructions to take 5-10 mg as needed every 4-6 hours for pain. But if patients follow these instructions, they will be taking up to 90 MME (morphine mg equivalents) a day—a dose nearly double the threshold above which the US … — BMJ - Overprescribing is major contributor to opioid crisis
In 2017, the President’s Commission on Combatting Drug Addiction and the Opioid Crisis found that the opioid crisis was caused in part by “inadequate oversight by the Food and Drug Administration,”
Over the past 25 years, despite mounting evidence that a surge in opioid consumption was resulting in adverse public health consequences, the FDA continued to approve new opioid formulations for chronic pain
the FDA’s conduct is all the more troubling in light of the close relationship between the agency officials responsible for opioid oversight and opioid manufacturers. For example, the 2 principal FDA reviewers who originally approved Purdue’s oxycodone application both took positions at Purdue after leaving the agency.
To be clear, the revolving door between the FDA and the pharmaceutical industry is not limited to opioids. A 2018 study found that 11 of 16 FDA medical reviewers involved in approving 28 products now work for the companies whose products they regulated. — AMA Journal of Ethics
Some researchers are concerned that benzodiazepines, a widely used class of sedative, are being overprescribed. — Nature - Tracing the US opioid crisis to its roots
Despite this mounting criticism, FDA policies for approving and labeling opioids remain largely unchanged. The FDA has not undertaken a root cause analysis of its regulatory errors that contributed to this public health catastrophe, let alone instituted any major reforms. — AMA Journal of Ethics
The medium is the message. — Marshall McLuhan
So the Republicans are persuading people to be anti-vaccine because it wins them votes because people are anti-vaccine? — Isaac
So anti-vaccine sentiment. Who's earning the money out of that? — Isaac
Ask Trump, who was booed by his crowd when he said "Take the vaccine, it's good," what he stands to lose. He quickly pivoted to nonsense about "freedom." That's what the Republicans have to lose: their voters.
— Xtrix
We're talking about why people have been fed an anti-vax message in the first place. Your argument here is circular. — Isaac
What kind of kindergarten-level naivety makes you think we can trust 'the experts'? — Isaac
They cannot control a monster they themselves helped to create. — Xtrix
The same thing I hear from Alex Jones followers, creationists, and election fraud enthusiasts. They'll gladly point out how everyone once thought the world was flat, and the many instances where "science" got it all wrong, the experts were all fooled, instances of corruption, etc. — Xtrix
The experts are wrong sometimes. — Xtrix
What's truly naive, however, is thinking you've cracked the case that thousands of experts are currently studying because you've spent several hours selectively perusing. — Xtrix
The observed association between diabetes and COVID-19 might be attributed to the effects of SARS-CoV-2 infection on organ systems involved in diabetes risk. — Risk for Newly Diagnosed Diabetes ›30 Days After SARS-CoV-2 Infection Among Persons Aged ‹18 years — United States, March 1, 2020–June 28, 2021
I didn't ask you for a list of tenuous candidates for your laughable attempt to defame by association. I asked you why you thought we could trust the experts. — Isaac
that...
The experts are wrong sometimes.
— Xtrix
So there remains the question of why you believe, on this occasion, they're not. — Isaac
you've yet to provide any justification at all for your belief that (unlike all other examples) this social media campaign is out of control, — Isaac
You're making vaccines the exception to just about every other trend in left-wing thinking for the last 50 years. This time, the government aren't in the pocket of lobbyists, this time the experts aren't in the pay of corporations, this time the media message isn't being manipulated to favour the status quo...no, apparently this one is different. Because...? — Isaac
I'm arguing one thing and one thing alone...
That whilst it is our moral responsibility to base our actions on the opinion of relevant experts, we must be free to choose which experts we decide to trust. Governments cannot be allowed to mandate or coerce us into trusting the ones they choose. — Isaac
I’m not getting into this again. I trust the consensus of experts. — Xtrix
The more interesting question is why expertise and consensus gets questioned in certain circumstances and not others. Why the sudden controversy and deep questioning (all the way down to “What is truth? What is a fact?”) about *this* topic and not about others? That’s the question. — Xtrix
You’re not an expert on this matter. Yet you question this and not other areas you also aren’t an expert in, like physics and mathematics and chemistry. — Xtrix
I haven’t once made the claim that everyone should be forced to take them. Not once. That seems to be your worry, along with the power of the pharmaceutical industry, which I’m also strongly against. — Xtrix
The vaccines are safe and effective. That’s what they’re not wrong about. Whatever you’re referring to is your own fabrication. Maybe they’re wrong about the moon landing. — Xtrix
Are you suggesting social media misinformation is never out of control? — Xtrix
Which is just nonsense. It’s like saying it’s rational to base your decisions on facts and math, but we should be able to choose what facts and what math. — Xtrix
Yeah, maybe some want to trust Alex Jones instead of the CDC on vaccines, or their local barber about the effects of smoking— whatever. — Xtrix
The norm was once to trust the institution of science and medicine. Ditto for government. — Xtrix
I’m not getting into this again. I trust the consensus of experts.
— Xtrix
What consensus? You've not provided a shred of evidence for this supposed consensus you're following. — Isaac
Are you seriously unable to think of a reason why people are questioning the response to Covid and not, say, black holes? People's lives have been devastated. — Isaac
Very little about mathematics or chemistry affects my life. — Isaac
force me to take medications I've no desire to take — Isaac
searching around for some political reason — Isaac
Yes, but your posts are a performative contradiction. — Isaac
The vaccines are safe and effective. That’s what they’re not wrong about. Whatever you’re referring to is your own fabrication. Maybe they’re wrong about the moon landing.
— Xtrix
I didn't ask you what you thought they were not wrong about, I asked you why you thought they were not wrong, on this occasion. — Isaac
And we need to put to bed this idea that they were just 'wrong' on opioids. — Isaac
I'm completely in agreement about the social media out-of-control theory. I'm asking why you're not. — Isaac
Really? You're saying that we can't choose which mathematicians to listen to either? Why in earth not? — Isaac
Niether Alex Jones, nor the local barber are experts. — Isaac
Either argue against something I'm actually saying or don't bother responding. — Isaac
For fuck's sake, you know what 'expert' means. — Isaac
The norm was once to trust the institution of science and medicine. Ditto for government.
— Xtrix
I don't see any evidence of such times, — Isaac
It's exactly this trust that I'm advocating — Isaac
Nor do I need to, since you already agree with it. Unless you want to take back your statement that vaccines are safe and effective. — Xtrix
Peoples lives are devastated when bridges collapse as well. Doesn't give everyone the right to pretend to be experts in engineering. Peoples lives were devastated in 9/11, as well -- doesn't give the millions of "truthers" out there the right to pretend to be experts in the structural integrity of buildings. — Xtrix
it is our moral responsibility to base our actions on the opinion of relevant experts — Isaac
Doesn't give people the right to become irrational about vaccines -- which is what I'm talking about. — Xtrix
No one is being forced to take the vaccine. — Xtrix
They're given a choice to take them or, in some cases, lose their jobs. — Xtrix
That's a decision the employer makes, and is unfortunately within their rights to -- just like wearing a uniform, being on time, saying certain words, etc. — Xtrix
If you're truly interested in worker freedom, how about dedicating more time to unions instead of railing on about vaccines? — Xtrix
No one has a gun to your head to take the vaccine. — Xtrix
we needed a high percentage of people for herd immunity — Xtrix
trusted in the experts (including my doctor) well before many people were vaccinated. — Xtrix
I'm not interested in the opioid issue....This didn't receive 1/100th of the attention the COVID vaccines have from the beginning. It's a completely different issue from what I'm talking about. — Xtrix
Why am I not in agreement with a "theory" that I put forward several pages ago and have been repeating as one major cause of the irrational behavior we see? — Xtrix
Really? You're saying that we can't choose which mathematicians to listen to either? Why in earth not? — Isaac
I didn't say mathematician, I said math. — Xtrix
Niether Alex Jones, nor the local barber are experts. — Isaac
Says who? As long as anything goes, so does who we consider an expert. — Xtrix
For fuck's sake, you know what 'expert' means. — Isaac
Where's your evidence that these experts are experts? — Xtrix
Just advocating for "real" science. — Xtrix
I trusted in the experts — Xtrix
It's a completely different issue from what I'm talking about. — Xtrix
.Mass population-based vaccination in the UK should now end — Dr Clive Dix
The fact that the vaccine is safe and effective is not a policy. — Isaac
The question here is whether vaccine avoidance is, in fact, irrational, not whether irrationality is a bad thing. — Isaac
If you're truly interested in worker freedom, how about dedicating more time to unions instead of railing on about vaccines?
— Xtrix
How do you know what I spend my time doing? — Isaac
No one is seriously talking about vaccines achieving herd immunity. — Isaac
trusted in the experts (including my doctor) well before many people were vaccinated.
— Xtrix
Good. Other people trust in experts too. Experts who disagree. — Isaac
Your sycophancy has reached a new low. — Isaac
Really? You're saying that we can't choose which mathematicians to listen to either? Why in earth not? — Isaac
I didn't say mathematician, I said math.
— Xtrix
Then what's your point? That no one disagrees in mathematics? That's not the case. — Isaac
Leading British and US scientists thought it was likely that Covid accidentally leaked from a laboratory but were concerned that further debate would harm science in China, emails show.
An email from Sir Jeremy Farrar, director of the Wellcome Trust, on February 2 2020 said that “a likely explanation” was that Covid had rapidly evolved from a Sars-like virus inside human tissue in a low-security lab.
The email, to Dr Anthony Fauci and Dr Francis Collins of the US National Institutes of Health, went on to say that such evolution may have “accidentally created a virus primed for rapid transmission between humans”.
But a leading scientist told Sir Jeremy that “further debate would do unnecessary harm to science in general and science in China in particular”. Dr Collins, the former director of the US National Institutes of Health, warned it could damage “international harmony”.
Should we make it mandatory for bars to be open 24/7? Drinks to be served without age or other restrictions of any kind! — Agent Smith
Great one! Man, you're great! No kidding! I owe you! — Raymond
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