:ok:

Would you say there was some understanding there pertaining to the claims about needs? I sure do hope so! If not, I would be grateful to know your reasons for thinking so.

Yes, there's understanding, a whole lot of it! :up:

I am not being facetious! Seriously, if I was wrong, I would be indebted for any correction. I know too little, far too little. There's much to know in this enigmatic cosmos of ours. I am not sure if you were being sarcastic. Apologies if I misunderstood you.

I am not being facetious! Seriously, if I was wrong, I would be indebted for any correction. I know too little, far too little. There's much to know in this enigmatic cosmos of ours. — DA671

Let's just say antinatalism isn't as simple as we think it is. I'm also a learner, just like you.

Neither is natalism or life itself as simple as we might think it is, but I agree. Would you wish to elaborate on any of the complexities you alluded to here?

Also, you clearly know much more than me, so I reject that "just like you" part. Some learners are much more advanced than others. Personally, I would love to get promoted to kindergarten ;)

:ok:

:D

It follows naturally — Agent Smith

Objectivity is not the arbiter of our happiness, we are.

Objectivity is not the arbiter of our hapiness, we are. — john27

Would you not like to be objectively happy as opposed to subjectively so?

Would you not like to be objectively happy as opposed to subjectively so? — Agent Smith

I don't think its a matter of if. We can not be more than our own judge.

I don't think its a matter of if. We can not be more than our own judge — john27

Can we not form a reasonable opinion about the world and our place in it? There's a lot of real pain/suffering out there and happiness is just another mirage in the scorching desert we call home. I suppose we could use some math here, but I'm too lazy to do it; instead I rely on my common sense, combined with observation; the world isn't pretty to look at, is it?

Plus, see what's happened (to you). You had to abandon objectivity because if you don't, you look foolish.

Plus, see what's happened (to you). You had to abandon objectivity because if you don't, you look foolish. — Agent Smith

Abandon? It was never there in the first place! Nor should it be. I feel how I feel, and therefore, on questions on how I feel, I'm always right because it's impossible to be wrong. :cool:

Abandon? It was never there in the first place! Nor should it be. I feel how I feel, and therefore, on questions on how I feel, I'm always right because it's impossible to be wrong — john27

I like your attitude!

:up:

I didn't say you were right though! :wink:

Wha-!? OK, let me give an example.

You walk down the street with your antinatalism thingy and start telling people, objectively, that their perception on life is worse than it seems, their lifes suck, and that they should be sad for that reason.

Thier response? They tell you to bugger off.

You try it again next week. Same thing.

What's going on ? They simply don't feel that way! Which would mean, in a sense, that objectivity can not tell another person how they feel. If they're happy, they happy. If they sad, they sad. Simple as that.

You've not understood (antinatalism).

Antinatalism is the belief that bringing a child into the world, to procreate, is morally incorrect, if I understand correctly. It reaches this conclusion via the Asymmetry, and assessment of quality of life. What my little explanation does is show that the assessment of quality of life is misguided, and therefore antinatalism fails to amount due to not being able to percieve life, as "bad" (objectively).

:broken:

:up:

What my little explanation does is show that the assessment of quality of life is misguided, and therefore antinatalism fails to amount due to not being able to percieve life, as "bad". — john27

Oh sorry, that's not right I'm afraid. Try not to overthink it.

Antinatalism:

Basis: Suffering.
Advice: Don't birth children.

Oh sorry, that's not right I'm afraid — Agent Smith

Oh. Well hey, I gave it my best shot.

Oh — john27

Yes, Oh! You need to reexamine antinatalism, carefully this time.

Oh. Well hey, I gave it my best shot. — john27

Yes, everybody does that! :up:

Yes, Oh! You need to reexamine antinatalism, carefully this time. — Agent Smith

:ok:

While "re-examining" antinatalism "carefully, please do remember that good replies to it exist, and it (most probably) is not true in a universal sense

Natalism:

Basis—Ineffably meaningful lives could probably exist


Advice—Do have kids (provided you are capable of giving them a sufficiently valuable life).

A bit of nuance always helps over absolute principles ;)

While "re-examining" antinatalism "carefully, please do remember that good replies to it exist, and it (most probably) is not true in a universal sense — DA671

What are these "good" replies? I'm all ears.

What is your good position that I am supposed to reply to? I am also all eyes.