An action (seeing) can observe itself maybe but it isn't an entity (eye), it's a phenomenon/a process. When these two are confused, we have on our hands one big mess.
— Agent Smith
One big mess indeed. Far too convoluted.
Let's be concise - what can the entity itself - the subject, observe and what can't it observe?
Subject can observe an object.
Subject can observe an action or process(including it's own actions).
Subject can not observe subject (itself).
This is universally true for any subject/object relation. Any reflection of the subjection happens through another object.
the brain isn't capable of making itself the object of its own study like it can with other things
— Agent Smith
Indeed, this is logical. The subject can not observe itself.
Then however, we have this claim.
Metacognition: The mind forms and image of itself. This image, last I checked, is definitely not a brain.
— Agent Smith
Something ain't right about this. The subject observing itself is not logical.
It is not the mind that observes the mind. There's a far more logical explanation, which is simply that the brain observes the mind.
This way, our logic is not broken.
Subject (brain) observes object (mind)
Though even more accurately is
Subject (brain) observes process (thought)
Because the mind as an object is a concept and nothing more.
It doesn't exist as any form of entity. It is a process run by the brain and when the system shuts down, so does the mind.
Anyone can easily reproduce this by holding their breath for anywhere from approximately 2-5 minutes. Pass out and see what happens to your mind. Maybe don't actually try but if you've never passed out before, let me tell you the sensation is seriously fascinating.
To understand this fully, let's clarify that this kind of fainting I'm talking about is caused due to a lack of oxygen in the brain - other forms of fainting can and will be very different. At this point our brain triggers a form of emergency mechanism and shuts down all unnecessary function - including movement. The body collapses and goes on energy saving mode in an attempt to bring oxygen levels in the brain back to stable. This state is very unlike sleep, where we know the process of mind continues to some degree.
And a process it is; which becomes blatantly obvious when you experience this waking up after the brain shutting down due to lack of oxygen. You come to your senses and you have no idea what's going on. The processing of the brain works fine auditory and visualy, you can respond to people and all - but the mind is just dragging behind - as if it needs a bit to reboot and regather all it's data. Get enough perceptions until it can piece the picture back together - because the picture, along with the mind, have just been dumped in the bin by the brain. — Hermeticus
belief and truth are not the same
— Banno
Of course, as concepts! But they are closely connected: Isn't what I believe, true for me? — Alkis Piskas
"If there's an objective reality, who is out there to tell?" — Alkis Piskas
I hope that this clears the difference between "subjective and objective" — Alkis Piskas
I don't know what exactly you mean by discovering en masse, i.e. what are they discovering, but whatever they are discovering doesn't change the fact that as long as they believe that Covid does not exist, it is true for them that Covid does not exist.Well, no, as those who do not believe in Covid are discovering en masse — Banno
We, who?"If there's an objective reality, who is out there to tell?"
— Alkis Piskas
We are. — Banno
Sorry about that. I thought I explained my point clearly ...Repeating the confusion is not an improvement. — Banno
"Whatever I believe is true, it is true for me." — Alkis Piskas
Nothing like that. It says that belief and truth are so closely connected that one implies the other."Whatever I believe is true, it is true for me."
— Alkis Piskas
...says no more than "what I believe, I believe". — Banno
It says that belief and truth are so closely connected that one implies the other. — Alkis Piskas
...all that was a total wast of time. — Alkis Piskas
think that you are talking about another kind of beliefs, since you involve society. I'm talking simply about "belief" as a concept and referring to individuals: "an acceptance that something exists or is true". It is something very very, but very, simple. — Alkis Piskas
I don't see how any of this answers my questions in my previous post. I asked you a question and now you're answering it with questions. Remember, I'm asking you to clarify what you have said about your position, not mine.Is there experience without awareness? Can a rock, for instance, experience anything? Also,is there awareness sans experience? Is this sentence :point: "Tell me you experiences in Paris?" appropriate for a block of wood or does it seem like one that should be asked of a being capable of awareness, like yourself for example? — Agent Smith
Whose else beliefs are properties of? :smile: Even if you mean society's, doesn't a society consist of individuals? And even if we try to describe what the beliefs of a society are on a certain subject, wouldn't the same thing hold, that is, what a society believes about something, that would be true for that society? We get to the same point. We can expand this to the whole race and the whole planet (all humans). In all cases we get to the logical redunancy (or circular reasoning) that you are mentioning:dispensing altogether the idea that beliefs are properties of individuals — sime
I believe(x) implies x is true, and
x is true implies I believe(x) — sime
Nice! :up:as for example in machine learning when informally analysing a reinforcement learning algorithm in terms of "goals" and "belief states" — sime
There's no point to this discussion: my neural network (brain) is not aware that it is a neural network (brain). — Agent Smith
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