Welfare isn’t a one-to-one ratio with socialism, but I agree.

As I noted, it isn't my job to make the case, and you haven't done it. You've made claims about the way things happened without any references or backup other than the book you're discussing — T Clark

It's only your opinion that I haven't justified my claims. I will cite more exemplar-style evidence of my position as I read comments that I think, warrants a response containing such. The book I mentioned is a perfectly good beginning, in my opinion, and I have also offered anecdotal evidence of general historical events or least, I have made the attempt to image important historical actions which have resulted in our current civilisation and its political doctrines.

You've misunderstood the purpose of philosophy and of the forum. Criticizing your ideas is part of the game. It is playing. If you want me to pick up my ball, I suggest you don't respond to this post. If you do respond, that's an invitation for me to continue. — T Clark

No, I haven't misunderstood the purpose of philosophy or this forum. Philosophy described as "to question assumptions made about our lives and go into the details of why we think what we think and why we choose to act as we act" fits in with my intentions for this thread. This forum is discussive in intent so again your 'misunderstood' claim is nonsense.

Criticizing your ideas is part of the game. It is playing. If you want me to pick up my ball, I suggest you don't respond to this post. If you do respond, that's an invitation for me to continue. — T Clark

Please continue to criticise my ideas, as you are absolutely correct, that doing so, is part of the intent of the forum. I invite you to say as much as you have a mind to and as often as you like and I will respond accordingly. I merely suggest you pick up your ball if you no longer wish to contribute to the thread.

Which socialist society appeals to you? Kampuchea, Cuba, North Korea? Eritrea? East Germany?
Resist falling under the spell of socialism, if you can. The world is still recovering from its lies and ruin


I would suggest that your knowledge of the tenets of socialism are flawed at best and dead wrong at worse.
If you think what happened in the 'Killing Fields' of Cambodia or 'Democratic Kampuchea' under Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge was socialism then you are dead wrong. Can you give me an example of a political decision made by the dictator Pol Pot that you consider 'democratic'. Democracy is an essential tenet of socialism. That single tenet alone shows that socialism is therefore also not the system employed in the totalitarian dictatorship of North Korea. The party-based dictatorships practiced in the USSR and therefore East Germany were not true marxist based commune....ism, never mind socialist.
You cannot have socialism in a one-party state.
The current government of Eritrea is also a party-based, presidential dictatorship and therefore not socialist.
Cuba I have less problem, with but it's still not socialist. Its dictator was (in my opinion) more benevolent towards the Cuban people compared to your typical dictator but he was not a socialist.
People may claim and use the title, even the nazi's used 'National socialist' in their title but they were known liars to. No different to the priests who call themselves Christian and then some of them engage in child abuse. Are they still Christians in the actions they demonstrate?
To be a socialist, you must demonstrate socialism in your actions and in your policies, and not just in your party name or as a word on your favourite tshirt.
I think you have been reading or listening to American propaganda on what Communism and Socialism are. Do you think McCarthyism was correct?

Yes, and get rid of Social Security and Medicare while you're at it


Typed in the true 'Trumpian' spirit. It's always fun to hear the Trumpians blow. Just like the apocalyptic TRUMPets in the book of revelations. Does that make Donald Trump the predicted anti-christ prophesised? or is that just another fable-like idea in a similar vein to the stories for scaring infants, available in revelations.
I think the trumpians give the rest of us good warning of who and where they are by the noises they make and by doing so allow us to flick them away without too much effort so we can concentrate on improving the lives of the majority of people. Perhaps you should pick up your ball.

The road to hell is paved in good intentions, goes the old refrain. The belief we can force society to resemble some utopian vision is the problem to begin with. It isn’t long until even the most well-intentioned socialist is tossing people in a Gulag. Just say “that isn’t true socialism”, try again, kill millions, rinse and repeat.

The road to hell is paved in good intentions, goes the old refrain. The belief we can force society to resemble some utopian vision is the problem to begin with. It isn’t long until even the most well-intentioned socialist is tossing people in a Gulag. Just say “that isn’t true socialism”, try again, kill millions, rinse and repeat.



I fully understand the concerns you raise here and I think your complaint and exasperation are fully justified. I feel the same way and I despair when every attempt at true socialism fails.
I would suggest that the recent attempt in Venezuela under Hugo Chavez had these same 'good intentions' you describe. The attempt was again destroyed by those in power elsewhere. The intelligent rich know that true socialism is the greatest threat to their existence. This was true even in the days of Spartacus or even way before him. The intelligent and organised rich are very very powerful and have every advantage at their disposal, including technological advancement. I am amazed that the poor have been able to make the significant in-roads they have in the past few thousand years. But no matter how many times they kill us, they leave enough of us to spit in their faces again at some point in the future. This is because there is no point in being a King or a God if you don't have a large amount of inferior subjects. That's the reason they will be defeated in the end. There are many hope quotes from the past.
From 'you cant fool all of the people all of the time' to even Hollywood quotes like one in the spartacus movie.
Spartacus says to Crassus, after Spartacus kills Antoninus (to spare him from crucifiction)
"He'll be back and he'll be millions"
Gandhi said "The British empire cannot dominate 200 million Indians if they refuse to comply"
and so on....
I think if socialists start tossing people in Gulags then they forfeit their socialism.
I dont even care if you want to drop the word socialist and adopt another, such as humanist.
I just think we cannot lose the will to fight for full equality, not ever ever ever!

and remember, in war, truth is the first casualty.

Welfare isn’t a one-to-one ratio with socialism, but I agree. — NOS4A2

Well...yes.... I was being ironic.