:cry: :heart:

The is a beautiful video! I am so sorry our world is in such a mess, but we really didn't know we were causing so much harm. We have so much to do and need to do it very fast, but we aren't talking with each other.

Look, participating in civic activities is maybe even more important than voting. Look for a civic project you can become a part of. It doesn't matter what that project is as long as you are interested in it because you will more learn about how democracy works, just by getting involved. That is how we must take back our country. That is our best hope for getting through the very hard times we face.

And I want you to know you have been important to my understanding of much more than you could realize. I hoped you help me be a better and wiser person. If I just don't forget the lesson.

Apologies for barging into your conversation, but I just want to say that I agree with you that we must embrace cooperation in order to ensure that we can mould a better tomorrow for all. Schopenhauer1 isn't wrong in saying that there is a lot of unnecessary harm in the world, but I am optimistic that as long as compassionate people like him, you, and others here on this forum exist, we can make meaningful progress. Hope you have a fantabulous day!

I think we are experiencing a new dramatic change that is mobilizing the people who believe in cooperation and who are compassionate. I have started a blog that is consuming much of my time and maybe it can become a place for caring people to participate in a change of consciousness.

If you don't mind, may I please ask for the name/link of your blog?

And yeah, it's definitely encouraging to finally see (after a long time) many people who wish to genuinely contribute towards the well-being of others :)

Thanks for your encouraging words! I could just hold in a tear! :heart:

And yeah, it's definitely encouraging to finally see (after a long time) many people who wish to genuinely contribute towards the well-being of others :) — DA671

Then it is not just me seeing this. That is exciting. All through history, things have swung this way and that way. When we experience enough shared pain we have joined together to counteract the problem.

I believe in the New Age. A time of high tech, peace, and the end of tyranny. What will be new is our consciousness will be so different, we will not be able to relate to the past, and this is the result of technology. We are no longer a labor-intense society. That makes a big difference and we need to think of a new future so we can work on creating that.

To deal with global warming, what do our neighborhoods need to look like? Personally, I am elderly and I want to live in a complex with others my age and those things I need to stay as fit as possible, such as a swimming pool and a variety of exercise programs, including stimulating my mind. That is not affordable for me, but if we were planning for a better future, that might be in the plan.

The Japanese have focused on creating neighborhoods where everything is in walking distance and the children are safe. What a wonderful thing to wrap our minds around. Environmental concerns are natural to such planning.

Many people pay careful attention to the weather because it affects their lives. Our weather report includes the severity of the drought we are experiencing and sometimes the air quality is mentioned. We can encourage our weather reporters to keep us informed and aware of our environment. So many people are ready for this, we can make it happen.

The most important thing is to be creative and imagine what would be better! Then we need to be civically active, not only to achieve good things but to learn what democracy is about. We absolutely must participate in committees that are working on social problems because that is how to learn how democracy works. We need to take back governing ourselves.

Your enthusiasm is inspirational and reinvigoriating! Even though we do have to resolve certain issues, I think that active participation and a balanced approach can definitely help us achieve our goals to an adequate degree. Thanks, for being there.

Your enthusiasm is inspirational and reinvigoriating! Even though we do have to resolve certain issues, I think that active participation and a balanced approach can definitely help us achieve our goals to an adequate degree. Thanks, for being there. — DA671

Please, may we all understand the miracle of democracy is bringing out the best in each other. In a democracy, we are not subjects. We are equals as the gods. That does not mean we are the same. The miracle very much depends on our variety and different points of view. The consciousness above us, that is all of history and all of our minds, is far greater than waht any form of dictatorship can manifest. You know as China is developing great technology, but maybe not a great a culture?

We need a better understanding of that miracle of democracy than we have today. Education for technology has made us as mean-spirited as Nazi Germany was and it was education too focused on technology for military and industrial purposes that led to the paranoia and meanness and blaming, blaming, blaming "those people". We see the problem in forums every day. People attacking and arguing with a very mean spirit, putting the attacked person on the defensive and destroying the possibility that together we can work miracles. Our problem today is one of spirit. If we are nice to each other, and work together, some really good things may happen.

There are many nice people out there; it just sometimes takes time to find them :)

There are many nice people out there; it just sometimes takes time to find them :) — DA671

I have been puzzling over this for a long time. I think forums are our best meeting place. I have started a Blog but I am just learning to use it. Religious people have the benefit of being organized in such a way they can be more effective as a group. But attempting to organize people without an established organization is extremely challenging, especially for someone without money. However, there are organizations, and thanks to the internet we can find them and join them.

Here are 36 organizations we can support.
https://foodtank.com/news/2020/10/36-organizations-helping-solve-the-climate-crisis/

The difference the internet makes, along with a better understanding of democracy, can radically change our reality. My main focus is improving our understanding of democracy.

I just had another thought. Looking at the list of organizations to fight climate change, I see all the little groups of Christians, before there was organized Christianity. I think religious kind of breath beginning as separate little groups, eventually joining into a large group, and breaking down again into smaller groups.

Could you share your blog's link? The connection between the internet and democracy seems like a really interesting one, and I would love to check out your blog to learn more about this stuff.

Thanks for sharing that incredibly helpful list!

↪Athena Does your blog have a name yet? The connection between the internet and democracy seems like a really interesting one, and I would love to check out your blog!

Thanks for sharing that incredibly helpful list! — DA671

Oh dear, I am supposed to be doing payer work so I can get a paycheck, but I think you have given me a new subject I need to write about in the Blog and that led to finding a link that explains the history of the subject of the thread and clarifies the Military-Industrial Complex is not just conspiracy theory. At the moment the title is "militaryindustrialcomplexornewworldorder" I think I need to add - to separate the words. I don't know how people would access the blog, but I can send you an invite. I have just started working on it and it is not that well developed. For sure I must explain how the internet makes the power of democracy even more universal because it is a tool encompassing our individual consciousness on a scale never before possible.

The New Age is also the Resurrection. Archeologists, geologists, and related sciences are resurrecting the past. This is a time of reckoning for all our past sins. I am speaking a huge flood of information that changes our consciousness so dramatically the people of the New Age will not able to comprehend life as we have assumed life must be. We will look as primitive to them, as apes are primitive to us.

Global Warming & Chaos

I think the OP's on to something.

Remember chaos theory, how it began? Weather! The long and short of it is that small differences in initial conditions lead to outcomes, downstream, that are extremely divergent. So given a weather model, inputting a temperature of 2.001 degrees Celsius and 2.002 degrees Celsius (a variation of 0.001 degrees Celsius) could mean that one scenario leads to a scorching hot day and another a blizzard.

If so, the reliability of climate models that predict global warming is thrown into question . Chaos theory precludes it, oui? I believe climate deniers are in the know about this.

I think the OP's onto something.

Remember chaos theory, how it began? Weather! The long and short of it is that small differences in initial conditions lead to outcomes, downstream, that are extremely divergent. So given a weather model, inputting a temperature of 2.001 degrees Celsius and 2.002 degrees Celsius (a variation of 0.001 degrees Celsius) could mean that one scenario leads to a scorching hot day and another a blizzard.

If so, the reliability of climate models that predict global warming is thrown into question. Chaos theory precludes it, oui? I believe climate deniers are in the know about this. — Agent Smith

I like your explanation of chaos theory. But when it comes to being a climate denier or believer I am on the side of believers. Most of Oregon has experienced a severe drought and the drought condition worsened so badly a new word had to be invented. "Exceptional drought" is worse than "extreme drought". Normally Oregon had so much rain I thought we would never have a water problem. That is no longer true and the fires we had two years ago, made me take that very seriously.

I like old people so I listen to their stories whenever I can and long before any mention of climate change, they were talking about how they would never go into the woods to log, without their rain clothes. They were saying our climate change began before everyone was talking about it.

I garden so I noticed a few years ago, that spring started to come earlier. I could not trust my own sense of what was happening until that also became a subject of discussion. I think many of us will be planting earlier this year and what we plant may change if we continue to have extremely hot summers. Too much hot weather thickens the skin of plants and makes them less pleasant to eat.

:up:

All I wanted to convey was if climate scientists are using climate models to predict global warming, we should exercise caution for the simple reason that chaos theory implies that even the tiniest variation in the inputs (possible in the real world) would nullify any predictions whatsoever.

True

All I wanted to convey was if climate scientists are using climate models to predict global warming, we should exercise caution for the simple reason that chaos theory implies that even the tiniest variation in the inputs (possible in the real world) would nullify any predictions whatsoever. — Agent Smith

There is a saying that when we resolve one problem we create three more. We really do not know as much as we need to know and if we were okay with that and moved cautiously all the time, that would probably be a good idea.

We can feed millions of people because of large cooperate owned farms and fertilizer and that has been a serious pollution problem. Until we reduce the size of our population, I don't think we will have good solutions. But if we all came to love the earth with some reverence for the miracle of life on this planet, that could lead to improvements.

Wait & watch. :ok:

Wait & watch. :ok: — Agent Smith

I don't think that is a good idea. That is kind of like standing on the railroad tracks and wondering if the train will stop before passing you. It would be smarter to get off the tracks.

And when it comes to consuming fossil fuels, the US was the world's supply of oil. The recession following the 1974 OPEC embargo oil to the US was a real wake-up call! Reagan lied to us by saying we did not need to conserve oil. Then he slashed domestic budgets and poured everything into our economic and military control of oil in the mid-east bringing us to the mess we are in now. I don't want to get too political, but Vietnam and all the following mid-east wars are about oil and protecting our economy that consumes more oil than we have. Our need for oil and our money spending to getting oil, has caused the oil countries a lot of pain. The Vietnam war was very painful to us and them. This is not moral.

Wait & watch. :ok: — Agent Smith

It's not enough just to watch. The models of weather are not models of climate. If the model predicts a 3 degree increase in temperature that temperature will rise! Some thinking before commenting is welcome. Only words won't do.

I don't think that is a good idea. — Athena

What choice do we have? I don't see anyone proposing solutions that are certain to produce results, practicable, fair, to name a few qualities that matter.

What happened in Glasgow (COP26)? Absolutely nothing if you ask me.

It's not enough just to watch. The models of weather are not models of climate. If the model predicts a 3 degree increase in temperature that temperature will rise! Some thinking before commenting is welcome. Only words won't do. — AgentTangarine

That's what was bothering me. Any ideas how climate models are constructed? Does chaos theory apply to climate? I have a feeling it does, it should.

we should exercise caution for the simple reason that chaos theory implies that even the tiniest variation in the inputs (possible in the real world) would nullify any predictions whatsoever. — Agent Smith

Not necessarily. Millions of butterflies wiggle their wings in the Orient with no effect in San Francisco at all. Not all weather models are subject to the "sensitive dependence on initial conditions" of chaos theory.

Not necessarily. Millions of butterflies wiggle their wings in the Orient with no effect in San Francisco at all. Not all weather models are subject to the "sensitive dependence on initial conditions" of chaos theory. — jgill

First off, you really don't know if those beautiful butterflies are not behind the recent spate of extreme weather events.

Second, is there any difference between weather & climate models used for making global warming predictions that would mean chaos theory is inapplicable to climate?

Second, is there any difference between weather & climate models used for making global warming predictions that would mean chaos theory is inapplicable to climate? — Agent Smith

"Chaos theory" refers to certain dynamical systems having weaknesses allowing for minute changes to produce significant results through sequences of iterations. Meteorology includes both weather and climate. Meteorological models are susceptible. Not all models are unpredictably chaotic. It's a sort of vague expression in everyday use.

First off, you really don't know if those beautiful butterflies are not behind the recent spate of extreme weather events. — Agent Smith

Of course I do! Just trust me. :brow:

Just trust me — jgill

:rofl:

I trust mathematicians because

Is God a mathematician? — Mario Livio

What choice do we have? I don't see anyone proposing solutions that are certain to produce results, practicable, fair, to name a few qualities that matter.

What happened in Glasgow (COP26)? Absolutely nothing if you ask me. — Agent Smith

James Carter was our president from 1977 to 1981. His focus was on reducing our dependency on foreign oil so we would not applaud his policies, but he ask us to be conservative and turn our thermostats down to 68 degrees. If we all did that, that would be a huge saving because there are so many of us. He also advanced solar energy. We know part of the problem is eating meat, so some of us are eating less meat or no meat at all.

Here are suggestions and consider because there are so many of us, we can make a difference. The more of us who choose to take action, the easier it will be for the government to take action.
https://davidsuzuki.org/what-you-can-do/top-10-ways-can-stop-climate-change/

Understand, President Reagan lied to us and he dismantled what Carter put in place. WE MUST NOT COUNT ON GOVERNMENT BECAUSE WE CAN GET PRESIDENTS WHO LEAD US IN THE WRONG DIRECTION. WE MUST COUNT ON DEMOCRACY- THAT IS ALL OF US WORKING TOGETHER TO ACHIEVE GOALS. :heart: :flower:

I am wondering how the discussion would go if we thought the Creator manifested our reality by giving chaos order and that human activity can either maintain that order or destroy it? — Athena

With regard to the thesis set out in the opening post, ten pages ago, ideally, I think it's our responsibility to understand what's true, and act morally with regard to what's true....not necessarily 'because God says so' but because there is an objective reality that's a web of cause and effect relations, and acting on valid knowledge within a causal reality is necessary to valid outcomes. For instance, imagine a criminal in court - who tells lies. If those lies are believed; the court may act morally, but the verdict will not be just. Valid knowledge of reality is necessary to morally valid outcomes; but also functionally valid outcomes. Imagine a technology based on principles that are wrong to reality. It won't work.

It's the same with the world. Nature is one big machine, and we're a faulty cog insofar as we are wrong, causing a system wide dysfunction. It's scientifically possible to solve the climate and ecological crisis. The earth is a ball of molten rock containing an effectively limitless amount of energy, we could harness to meet all our energy needs, plus capture carbon, desalinate, irrigate and recycle, and so balance human welfare and environmental sustainability very much in our favour. Nasa proved this in 1982 - but somehow 'The Magma Enenergy Project' was quietly discontinued, and 40 years later, global population and fossil fuel use have doubled, and Trump Digs Coal!

If you see things in terms of chaos and order you end up with totalitarian government, but if you see things in terms of knowing what's true and doing what's right, you get morally valid outcomes that work!

WE MUST NOT COUNT ON GOVERNMENT BECAUSE WE CAN GET PRESIDENTS WHO LEAD US IN THE WRONG DIRECTION. WE MUST COUNT ON DEMOCRACY- THAT IS ALL OF US WORKING TOGETHER TO ACHIEVE GOALS. :heart: :flower:
2h — Athena

That's the true spirit of democracy! The term is too often abused to justify the tyrant.

Second, is there any difference between weather & climate models used for making global warming predictions that would mean chaos theory is inapplicable to climate? — Agent Smith

My husband, a meteorologist at the NWS, once explained me. The butterfly effect is no real effect. One butterfly cannot cause a storm in USA if she flaps wings in China! The butterfly effect is rather poor name giving. It's meant to ilustrate chaos but does so wrongly. Small changes can produce divergent solutions, and the air around the butterfly behaves chaotically but to change the weather on global scale you have to vary conditions globally. A simple flap won't do.
Weather can't be predicted (though the predictions can be quite accurate). Climate prediction is more reliable.


My husband, a meteorologist at NWS, told me a nice story about butterflies. One good day, butterflies realized they got screwed by Lorenz (name giver of effect).

Didn't know all that. :up:

What I'm really concerned about is if climate action has a deadline to meet and whether we're already past that date with destiny.