So, the conscious Mind has no role in human behavior? — Gnomon
Yes, the function of the Mind is to focus the body/brain onto aspects of the world that are relevant and important to the Self. What we know as "The Self", with its selfish Will, is not a separate thing from the body. Instead, it is a mental image of the integrated (Holistic) functioning of all parts of the body, including brain matter and the circulatory system. However, since most of us have difficulty imagining abstract concepts, we tend to create symbolic metaphors to represent the notion of "Self". And one way to imagine the invisible Menta-Physical notion of Self, is as a ghostly outline of the Physical body. Unfortunately, some people tend to reify that mental image as an immaterial Spirit-form running around outside the material Body-form. Of course, reified metaphors are OK for the dramatic purposes of Poetry, but not for the pragmatic probes of Science.It's probably a focus short cut that other subconscious areas can use for reference to what's going on. — PoeticUniverse
mental image — Gnomon
That's an interesting notion. The properties that we attribute to physical phenomena are abstractions from our sensory sensations. And those conceptions from perceptions are what we call mental "symbols" representing reality. I'll have to give that equation more thought. Those qualitative symbols may also be what Donald Hoffman calls "icons" that we "interface" with, as-if they were real. :smile:if qualia are the highest point of the brain's own invented symbolic language. — PoeticUniverse
those conceptions from perceptions are what we call mental "symbols" representing reality. — Gnomon
Wow! Do you see fully fleshed-out Qualia in your dreams? Unfortunately, mine are still only semi-opaque. The reds in my dreams are still grayish, and the redness is only implicit. :meh:Plus, in our imagination we see very dim qualia that have about 90% transparency, and full qualia in our dreams. — PoeticUniverse
Do you see fully fleshed-out Qualia in your dreams? — Gnomon
Does your "blue spot" allow you to focus on Qualia, but then forget where you parked your car?
then forget where you parked your car? — Gnomon
I just can't leave the ghost of Free Will in peace. Since this is one of the most polarized topics on the forum, I find it one of the most interesting as a philosophical exercise.Since the Metaphysics, Yet Again thread has faded into the usual counter-accusations of "woo" and "non-sense", I thought I'd resurrect the ghost of Christmas past, by opening the Pandora's Box of "FreeWill", and related philosophical conundra. — Gnomon
Volition? — 180 Proof
I too was indoctrinated with the "Free Will Theodicy" (Spinoza was probably excommunicated for calling it "superstition") and had rejected the doctrine even before I'd graduated from high school (or read Spinoza et al) on the grounds of human "will" being "created" too weak for each of us to freely choose in every circumstance to overcome "temptation" (e.g. "Adam & Eve" in fuckin' paradise), or later as the notorious Hitchslap goes "we are made sick but commanded to be well." A bait-n-switch scam of perennial priestcraft (Nietzsche). Deus vult, not "free will", is the source of "evil"; if the bible is to be "believed", a life of suffering and afterlife of eternal torture for each and every one of us (unworthy, wretched, "original" sinners!) follows inexorably from "His Plan". Anyway, actions, not wills, are free (Schop, Witty, Dewey, Arendt, Dennett et al).Schopenhauer — 180 Proof
I just can't leave the ghost of Free Will in peace. Since this is one of the most polarized topics on the forum, I find it one of the most interesting as a philosophical exercise. — Gnomon
I may not have made it clear in the post above, that the author of the book wanted to prove that FreeWill is believable, but after all his reasoning, concluded that humans are slaves to Determinism.I too was indoctrinated with the "Free Will Theodicy" — 180 Proof
Yes. I suspect that the feeling of Free Will is easier to justify in the modern era of Democracy and Technology, than it was back when the average human seemed to be a pawn at the mercy of the powerful-&-willful men & gods & natural forces. My own half & half category is a sort of compromise between religious Positivism and scientific Negativism on the topic. Like most things in the imperfect real world, Freedom is relative. :smile:Free will may need to be unpacked into two categories: — Agent Smith
Yes. But ironically, some posters on this forum prefer to give "priority" to the reductive specific laws of Physics, and to diminish the importance of holistic general principles of Meta-Physics. In their view, nothing transcends the absolute laws of Lordly Nature, as revealed by the prophets of Physics. But, Einstein stuck a pin in the Classical Science bubble, by revealing that the world is Relative and Random. It's only "natural" selection that gives evolution a positive direction, by enforcing certain standards of fitness for progress.When we give metaphysical priority to our lived experience, that we think, act, and live as if we have free will, and recognize that this is clear evidence of the reality of something which transcends the laws of nature, we develop a completely different perspective of the laws of nature, and the reality of time itself. — Metaphysician Undercover
The Single Simple Question that Challenges All Convictions. — Gnomon
As an amateur philosopher, I don't concern myself with reductive physical particles, but with the holistic meta-physical -- or "sub-physical" if you prefer Sean Carroll's sub-quantum category -- synergy that entangles grains of sand into solid concrete. Concrete has an inter-active matrix that binds weak loose parts into strong cohesive wholes.We’ll have to pick at some of the clues to see what might come out of them although not seeing anything about free will or not at the outset. . . . . Big Bang Cosmology indicates that many particles may be entangled with some others, having have been all together at the start although probably not everything is entangled with everything. — PoeticUniverse
Respectfully : "To each his own". :wink:Respectfully, I feel my absurdist prognosis is more physically grounded ... — 180 Proof
Boy! Your Nihilist & Determinist attitude has really made you sour and cynical. :naughty:Yeah, these litany of shallow definitions you lean so heavily upon in your posts are just lazy crutches crippling your intellectual credibility. :eyes: — 180 Proof
“Those of us who want to believe that human beings have free will must find sufficient evidence that our minds are something more than can ever be attributed to physical causes.”Respectfully, I feel my absurdist prognosis is more physically grounded ... — 180 Proof
Holism ; Holon :
Philosophically, a whole system is a collection of parts (holons) that possesses novel properties not found in the parts. That something extra is an Emergent quality that was latent (unmanifest) in the parts. For example, when atoms of hydrogen & oxygen gases combine in a specific ratio, the molecule has properties of water, such as wetness, that are not found in the gases. A Holon is something that is simultaneously a whole and a part — A system of entangled things that has a function in a hierarchy of systems. — Gnomon
2. Negative free will: Defiance of one's wills (free won't). — Agent Smith
Yes, the function of the Mind is to focus the body/brain onto aspects of the world that are relevant and important to the Self. What we know as "The Self", with its selfish Will, is not a separate thing from the body. Instead, it is a mental image of the integrated (Holistic) functioning of all parts of the body, including brain matter and the circulatory system. However, since most of us have difficulty imagining abstract concepts, we tend to create symbolic metaphors to represent the notion of "Self". And one way to imagine the invisible Menta-Physical notion of Self, is as a ghostly outline of the Physical body. Unfortunately, some people tend to reify that mental image as an immaterial Spirit-form running around outside the material Body-form. Of course, reified metaphors are OK for the dramatic purposes of Poetry, but not for the pragmatic probes of Science. — Gnomon
'Free won't' is just the usual subconscious neural 'voting' that comes from another part of the brain will than did the initial proposal. — PoeticUniverse
This pathetic hope-against-all-hope is one of the "absurd human passions" that Hume referred to as inappropriate for a perfect deity. Carter must be aware that neither the world, nor its reasoning creatures, are perfect. Yet, his working definition of "FreeWill" seems to require a perfect & omniscient being. Hence, his project -- of proving that Determinism is not absolute -- is bound to fail. However, if he could accept a less-than-perfect definition of freedom, his desire for a world in which Reason is not ridiculous might prove to be reasonable. — Gnomon
Free won't is the result of the brain categorizing domains of avoidance, building coherent value structures within those cognitive domains, and protecting their place in that domain through reinforced mechanisms of valuation as outlined in neuroeconomics. Free will IS free won't. The Will is the full expression of the brain and the thoughts and behavior that emerge, or do not emerge from it. — Garrett Travers
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