Most of my life, even before nearly a decade of "experimenting with" (abusing?) psychotropics and entheogens (and years of flashbacks which have followed), I've enjoyed my lucid dreaming considerably. That said, with respect to your stated ("spiritual"?) interests, Jack, I'm too much of a buzzkill on the topic to contribute in the way you probably prefer. I look forward, however, to seeing how this thread develops.

I mentioned a dream I had in the shoutbox, but I don't think it was a proper lucid dream, just a very vivid one in which I was in control of my flying ability.

I have had dreams on occasion which quite literally felt more real than reality; they evoke a feeling of pure, crystalline clarity of consciousness which is lacking in waking life. This is what nags at me and leaves me wondering. The afterglow of these sorts of dreams is a feeling that doesn't seem to appear anywhere else in life.

I put this thread into the Lounge because in some ways it is a fairly 'sensitive' area, as if people disclose dream experiences it may be a bit private, rather than simply rigorous arguments. The nature of dreams is so complex and, as you say, it hard to know what a 'proper lucid dream' is. I do remember reading some time ago that flying dreams are meant to signify 'upper states of consciousness.' I think that the closest I come to having actual flying dreams is some borderline sleep experiences in which I am floating around my room. However, these have not been particularly pleasant experiences.

Jung was probably correct in indicating that in the interpretation of dreams the individual meanings of the dreamer need to be taken into account rather than rules of interpretation being applied universally. He also looks at dreams in connection with the understanding of symbolism. It may be that dreams, including lucid ones, are about connecting with a different angle. Huston Smith, in 'Forgotten Truth', speaks of symbolism being about being able to explore different 'levels' or 'dimensions of reality'. Also, Peake refers to 'inner space' as a reality in itself.

It may be that there are two opposing approaches to lucid dreams or 'unusual' dream states. One is that which is extremely dismissive. In addition, many people are inclined to the view that exploration of symbolic levels is pointless. In contrast, some people interpret the symbolic experiences in a concrete way. Even if imagery and other aspects of experiences occur with eyes shut, on the borderline of sleep, if people read too much into them it can be dangerous. That may be the way in which many end up going into the territory of 'psychosis'. I consider myself as fortunate that I discovered Jung's writings during adolescence, because I think that otherwise I may have gone on to develop psychotic illness. It is such a fine line, because I have worked in mental health care and seen people struggling in how they understand and interpret symbolic experiences.

There are various models of understanding the various aspects of lucid dreaming and associated experiences, including the shamanic viewpoint. That is interesting in the way in which it refers to voyages to upper and lower worlds. I find reading literature on shamanism, including the work of Mircea Eliade, very useful. Also, there is a lot of interesting writing within Eastern literature, including the model of the chakra system One other important idea is that of 'kundalini', as the energy force rising from the base of the spine to the centre of the forehead, spoken of by Gopi Krishna. He speaks of all kinds of imbalances which may occur in the awakening of the 'kundalini serpent', and how it can lead to 'madness'.

The whole phenomena of lucid dreaming and 'astral travel or projection' is one which may be fraught with dangers. I can understand why many choose to leave it alone completely. Some find it extremely important though. I fall into the category of those who choose to explore it. The main issue may be about keeping balance and it is not easy. I definitely have experienced times when I have lost that balance. Ideally, it may be best to have some kind of mentor but they are difficult to find, and there are so many charlatans. Careful reading from various viewpoints may be the best, with a basis in philosophy or critical thinking may be the best approach, and some kind of grounding in the physical world.

Interesting topic. But I think we must be careful not to insist on linking lucid dreams with medical conditions, in the same way we need to be careful not to automatically link them with religious concepts.

To my knowledge, many if not most people who experience lucid dreams have perfect eyesight and no known underlying pathology or anything to do with psychoactive substances. Of particular interest is that lucid dreams seem to sometimes be associated with precognitive dreams in which objects or events seen in the dream are later experienced in real life.

So I think we need to distinguish between (1) hallucinations caused by medical conditions and psychoactive agents, (2) "normal" lucid dreams which distinguish themselves from non-lucid dreams in that the dreaming subject (a) is aware of the fact that it is dreaming and (b) has conscious control over the dream process, and (3) precognitive lucid dreams.

Obviously, (3) raises some interesting questions, like how these dreams are produced or how the dream content is connected with subsequent real-life experience, along with all the wider ramifications this may entail ....

Your points of clarification are extremely important because blurring of all the aspects may make the topic more confusing. Even though I think that my own experience of seeing imagery is related to an organic eye problem, it may be that the reason why I developed this may go beyond the physical to aspects of 'spiritual' development.

Definitely, the topic goes into the realms of religious experience and mental health conditions. I would not wish to underplay either of these, and I said in my previous post, it is a 'sensitive' topic. I guess that I would hope that both the medical and religious perspectives are not marginalised or given too much exaggeration. I am hoping that this discussion gives rise to some useful discussion and I put it into the lounge a while after writing the thread to make it a 'quieter' topic. If the thread does not seem to be working in terms of giving some balanced integrative discussion, I will seek to wind it up. I guess I just see it as an aspect underlying many other philosophy discussions and I certainly hope that starting this thread is not a grave error...

Jung was probably correct in indicating that in the interpretation of dreams the individual meanings of the dreamer need to be taken into account rather than rules of interpretation being applied universally. — Jack Cummins

An interesting note: I've always had vivd dreams and dreams that seem to have "significance", but once I first read about Jung's approach, I then had dreams that I found were more easy to interpret within my own personal situation and issues. Can our waking perception of dreams influence our actual dreams?

hat is interesting in the way in which it refers to voyages to upper and lower worlds. — Jack Cummins

'astral travel or projection' — Jack Cummins

Have you read anything by Robert Monroe? He's a fascinating case because he was apparently not at all interested in anything "supernatural", but began having spontaneous out of body experiences. So often people are pre-disposed to having an interest in these things, which makes them an easy target for skeptics. This was not the case with Monroe.

I fall into the category of those who choose to explore it. The main issue may be about keeping balance and it is not easy. I definitely have experienced times when I have lost that balance. Ideally, it may be best to have some kind of mentor but they are difficult to find, and there are so many charlatans. Careful reading from various viewpoints may be the best, with a basis in philosophy or critical thinking may be the best approach, and some kind of grounding in the physical world. — Jack Cummins

I fall into this category as well, and I agree that a careful, measured approach is best.

We probably all have to be careful of not falling into the role of 'charlatan' and I don't wish to become one by starting this thread. So, for others who may read this thread, I will say that I am no 'expert' and raise it for general philosophy consideration.

I think that I read some writing by Robert Monroe in relation to 'out of body' experiences. As I see it, the nature of out of body experiences is interesting, but it is questionable how much can be taken at face value? In other words, it may appear that one has got out of the physical body, but whether that has happened in an objective sense, is another question entirely.

One thing which I am sure of though is that waking reality has a profound effect on the nature of dreaming. At one point, I did keep a dream diary and I found that it had a clear effect on my dream life. I would like to do that again, but it is hard to write dreams down before forgetting them. Even if dreams are mainly related to subjective aspects of experience and consciousness, it may be that they are an important resource and source. I would like to use dreams and lucid dreaming as a source for art and inspiration, but it takes a lot of effort.

Think depression has quashed my ability to recall most dreams. The one's I do recall lack much of any kind of emotive charge/significance. I took a sleep study in which I had zero REM sleep but it may have been due to taking a tricyclic sedative. Lots of substances reduce/affect REM.

Sometimes dreams can be so foul that one would wonder how one could sleep through them if one were aware of them.

Besides, there nothing more surreal then this waking dream we've yet to transition from. Just walk into a Walmart... how many planets in the universe have a Walmart equivalent? This is all so strange.

Once, Zhuang Zhou dreamed he was a butterfly, a butterfly flitting and fluttering about, happy with himself and doing as he pleased. He didn't know that he was Zhuang Zhou. Suddenly he woke up and there he was, solid and unmistakable Zhuang Zhou. But he didn't know if he was Zhuang Zhou who had dreamt he was a butterfly, or a butterfly dreaming that he was Zhuang Zhou. Between Zhuang Zhou and the butterfly there must be some distinction! This is called the Transformation of Things. — Zhuang Zhou

but it is questionable how much can be taken at face value? — Jack Cummins

I’m not sure. His second book Far Journeys broke my brain a bit. It is completely wild. But ironically there are parallels to his experiences and other spiritual traditions such as Tibetan Buddhism and Hinduism which prevented me from completely writing it off. That combined with his scientific disposition; he had zero interest in this stuff until it started happening to him.

would like to do that again, but it is hard to write dreams down before forgetting them — Jack Cummins

I sometimes record them into my phone as memos. Not sure if it’s that much easier, but it’s another approach.

There are so many recurring themes, locations and people in my dreams that it’s simply self evident to me that they are not meaningless, that they have significance. Maybe not everyone has these kind of dreams; I think if anything it may be related to trauma, so not something to envy.

I haven't read Monroe in any depth but I may do at some point. I definitely don't think that dreams are meaningless and think that it is a great shame that they are often viewed in that way. I have some recurring dreams and some of them are extremely unnerving. It does seem likely that trauma has a role in this, especially as this is recognised within psychoanalysis. One strange thing which I notice in my own closed eye imagery is that I often see images of myself which change into other people or forms and I wonder what this is about. The world of dream imagery is puzzling.

I have had dreams on occasion which quite literally felt more real than reality; they evoke a feeling of pure, crystalline clarity of consciousness which is lacking in waking life. — Noble Dust

Yes. It's a remarkable experience. The imagery of normal reality is a compromise between what is incoming through the senses and internal processing. When the former is lacking and internal processing is fundamental great clarity is a result.

Interesting analysis. When you say "when the former is lacking" you're referring to "the senses", yeah?

I haven't read Monroe in any depth but I may do at some point. — Jack Cummins

A note of caution; when I say Far Journeys broke my brain a bit, I mean it put me into an existential fog for several months. That probably says as much about me as anything; that said, his first book Journeys Out of the Body was a great read that I thoroughly enjoyed. It's worth a read. But, somewhat related to your caution about charlatans, I would also caution us to test the waters as we move further away from shore. It's wise to retain some sense of where the shore is when diving in here, so as not to get lost at sea, as I've done several times.

I often see images of myself which change into other people or forms and I wonder what this is about. The world of dream imagery is puzzling. — Jack Cummins

Fascinating. I've never experienced this. On the other hand, family members make regular appearances in my dreams, in which I'm still the "main character". Like I said, trauma, or just basic therapeutic tendencies seem to be at play here.

Strangely, I have experienced less of my inner right eye imagery since starting the thread. It reminds me of when I was having Jungian therapy and was wishing to explore dreams. When I was in the therapy it seemed as if my subconscious was protesting against being scrutinised by a therapist. The relationship between the inner world and the outer one of daily life is so complex.

The relationship between the inner world and the outer one of daily life is so complex. — Jack Cummins

Yes, and it's not understood by any of us. When I first read about Jung's approach to dreams, I then had several very intense dreams that were easy to interpret in a Jungian way. I haven't had a dream like that in over a year.

when I was having Jungian therapy — Jack Cummins

That sounds like such a London thing to do

Over a year ago I found myself in a psychotic state. The difference with a real psychosis was though that I was aware that I had a psychosis. I had one before and I guess this is the reason why I was aware of my psychotic state, which means being able to see that what you think is not real (a sense that completely lacked in that earlier psychotic episode...). Lucid dreaming seems related. The realization that you dream. The hyonopompic state can be scary. The sirens sing to you, the muses show there face, and Thanatos keeps you paralyzed and lures you. Or in different words, your body is still shut off from your brain, which disables you to move.

The worse experience related to reading about dreams when I was about 16 and first came across Freud's ideas I dreamt that I had a gun and shot my father. It was such an unnerving dream and shows how ideas have subliminal effects on dreaming.

Do you think Jungian therapy is London oriented. It was not easy to find a Jungian therapist and I was undertaking therapy because it was a requirement to have some kind of therapy because I was doing an art therapy training course. However, Jung's ideas barely got mentioned on the course and even in London his ideas are often marginalised.

Psychosis can be an extremely terrifying experience and one of my friends is in psychiatric hospital as a result of a psychotic episode. I have worked in mental health care and found that in many cases psychiatrists are dismissive of philosophy discussion of areas such as hypnopompic dreams.

I bet it's a damn sight easier to find a psychoanalyst in London than in Mablethorpe or Mogadishu

I learned my skill from Castaneda's The Art of Dreaming, a succinct source though interwoven with Mexican Indian folklore. There is a wide spectrum of lucid dreaming, from ordinary slap dash dreams where one is along for the ride to the spectacular experience if awakening in an alternate reality, with full intellect and agency, and the feeling of bringing about whatever one wills to be.

But, as I've mentioned before, even in the latter crystalline state one may be able to clearly see the letters in a word, but not understand the word. Reading a newspaper without comprehension.

It's not easy to talk with someone who has not had the experience, and convey the stunning impression it makes.

I have read a few of Castaneda's books. I have come across some suggestions that they are all 'made up'. Even if they are fictitious, they still represent important knowledge and can be a source of inspiration for dream states.

His instructions for the Art of Dreaming worked the first time I tried it. So simple.

"So, I am creating this thread with a view to thinking about and understand the nature of lucid dreams. This is partly about understanding the causes. It also involves thinking about what they represent and may be understood or contribute to philosophy. What do they suggest about consciousness and 'inner worlds'?"

I think you might be looking at it the wrong way

I don't think it's necessarily a cause and more so a realization.

This has been probably the #1 most studied aspect of the human experience that I have devoted my time to over the last 15 to 17yrs as an avid lucid dreamer