• spirit-salamander
    268
    In the 50s and 60s of the last century there was a movement of the so-called God-is-dead theology, also known as theothanatology, theos (God) and thanatos (death).

    I think the best and most plausible theory that God is really and literally dead can be reconstructed from the pessimistic philosophy of the German Philipp Mainländer (1841 - 1876).

    This is what I will present here in a bundled way.

    Mainländer famously makes a bold notorious claim:

    God is dead and his death was the life of the world.

    Mainländer’s specific reasoning for this statement is as follows:

    “(1) God willed (his own) non-being.

    (2) God’s immediate passage into non-being was impeded by own being. [Had God’s will directly achieved its end, then worldless non-being would presently prevail; and since nothing outside God can act on him, only God’s own being could have impeded his will.]

    (3) It was consequently necessary for God’s being to disintegrate into multeity, a world in which each individual being strives to achieve non-being. [Only the finitization of God’s being will allow the end of non-being to be achieved.]

    (4) Individual worldly beings hinder one another’s striving and, in so doing, weaken their degree of force.

    (5) God’s entire being underwent transformation into a determinate sum total of forces.

    (6) The world as a whole or universe has one end, non-being, which it will achieve through the continual diminution of the sum of forces which compose it.

    (7) Each individual being will be brought in the course of its development, by virtue of the dissipation of its force, to a point where its striving to non-being is fulfilled.” (Translation and comments by Sebastian Gardner in “The Oxford Handbook of Schopenhauer”)

    This reasoning can be demonstrated in deductions, which Mainländer himself does not make, but they can be reconstructed from his philosophy.

    All of the following premises could, in my opinion, be supported with very good and, above all, reasonable arguments, even if one would not necessarily agree with them.

    Also important to keep in mind: The deductions depend on each other.

    The first deduction:

    A 1. The universe had an absolute beginning a finite time ago.

    A 2. Only through an act originating from God could the beginning of the universe have been set.

    B 1. God can produce something only out of his own substance (contra creatio ex nihilo et non se Deo, that is, creation from nothing and not from God).

    B 2. In the case of the coming into being of our universe this would have to be understood as transformation of something divinely transcendent into something worldly immanent.

    C 1. God’s wisdom strictly forbids coexisting with or alongside a creation in which everything that happens happens necessarily and without real alternatives.

    C 2. God can never create anything else than that whose activity from the outset will always lead only to a very specific and certain outcome, necessarily and inevitably so, due to Efficient Causes (determinism) and/or Final Causes (teleologism), thus according to The Principle of Sufficient Reason.

    D Therefore, God has completely transformed himself into the universe.

    The second deduction:

    God turned into either (x) a temporally limited universe or (y) a temporally infinite and everlasting one.

    1.1 If the latter (y) is the case, God has transformed into something that is inferior to his original state in terms of mode of existence. Even if God should turn into a timeless eternal universe, this universe would be ontologically less perfect compared to his primordial oneness.

    i) However, God’s most perfect wisdom forbids irrevocably entering (irreversibly) an inferior existence.

    1.2 If the former (x) is given, then at some point the temporally limited universe either returns into the exact original state of God, which has gained nothing and lost nothing by the process, or it ends in absolute nothingness.

    ii) However, God does not do anything superfluous or pointless.

    2. Therefore, the following applies: “God’s entire being underwent transformation into a determinate sum total of forces (a Kraftsumme).” And: “The world as a whole or universe has one end, non-being, which it will achieve through the continual diminution of the sum of forces which compose it.” (Mainländer, translated by Sebastian Gardner)

    The third deduction:

    I. God could not immediately erase himself from existence.

    II. The immediate erasure of his own existence, an existence which is in a certain way identical with his omnipotence, presupposed this omnipotence. In other words, his omnipotence could theoretically wipe out everything created without delay, except itself, because its immediate annihilation would require or necessitate its complete existence at the same time (concurrently).

    III. Therefore, God had no choice but to become a slowly but steadily disintegrating and waning world that, once gone, leaves absolutely nothing behind, in the truest sense of the word.

    The fourth deduction:

    I. God enjoys being the most perfect and blissful being.

    II. Thus, the following is true: “If the Eternal be conceived as in complete and perfect bliss, happily static and statically happy, there is no reason in logic or in life why he should ever be moved to engage in creation.” (Brasnett, Bertrand R. – The Suffering of the Impassible God)

    III. God enjoys absolute freedom to remain in existence or not to be at all (Real Libertarian Free Will).

    IV. If he should ever be moved to engage in creation, it would be for the reason of ceasing to be.

    V. There is creation, that is, a world as the sum of a multitude of individuals.

    VI. In addition, the following applies: The difference between monotheism and pantheism is “only an apparent one, a difference on the surface.” (Mainländer)

    “They have one common root: absolute realism and both have exactly the same crown: the dead individual which lies in the hands of an almighty God[:]” (Mainländer)

    "When the individual acts, his action will be not his own but only the single universal substance [God] acting through him." (Frederick C. Beiser - Weltschmerz)

    “A basic unity in the world [pantheism] is incompatible with the always and at every movement obtruding fact of inner and outer experience, the real individuality.” (Mainländer)

    VII. I experience myself not only as an individual, but also as a very alive one.

    VIII. God “cannot have chosen to remain in being or to merely alter his manner of being, else no world would have come into existence.” (Sebastian Gardner commenting on Mainländer’s sentence: God willed (his own) non-being.)

    IX. Instead of dead individuals and a living God, there are living individuals and a dead God.

    Some comments:

    Mainländer identifies the monotheistic God with a cat that has created a mouse, i.e. a determinate living being, in order to play sadistically with it. A truly wise God would possibly not want to take over the role of a cat, whose mouse-creation has no real freedom and reacts only necessarily to His actions. In fact, the Bible really seems to uphold a feline image of God, with some mice being spared, even rewarded:

    Jeremia 10,23: I know, O Lord, that the way of man is not in himself, that it is not in man who walks to direct his steps.

    Proverbs 21,1: The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD, like the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He wishes.

    Exodus 4,21: The Lord said to Moses, “When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

    Romans 8,28: And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
    Romans 8,29: For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
    Romans 8,30: And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

    Romans 9, 15: For he says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.
    Romans 9, 16: So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
    Romans 9, 18: So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

    The idea that God cannot possibly create free beings goes back to Schopenhauer:

    “Everything that is also is something, has an essence, a constitution, a character; it must be active, must act (which means to be active according to motives) when the external occasions arise that call forth its individual manifestations. The source of its existence is also the source of its What, its constitution, its essence, since both differ conceptually, but in reality cannot be separated. However, what has an essence, that is, a nature, a character, a constitution, can only be active in accordance with it and not in any other way; merely the point in time and the particular form and constitution of the individual actions are each time determined by the occurring motives. That the creator created human beings free implies an impossibility, namely that he endowed them with an existence without essence, thus had given them existence merely in the abstract by leaving it up to them what they wanted to exist as.” (§13. Some further elucidations on the Kantian philosophy Parerga and Paralipomena Short Philosophical Essays Volume 1 Arthur Schopenhauer)

    “The truth, however, is that being free and being created are two qualities that cancel and thus contradict one another. So the claim that God has created beings and at the same time given them freedom of the will really means that he created them and at the same time did not create them. For acting follows from being,a that is, the effects, or actions, of any possible thing can never be anything else but the consequence of its constitution,b which itself is known only through the effects. Therefore, in order to be free in the sense here demanded, a being would have to have no constitution at all, in other words, be nothing at all, thus be and at the same time not be. For what is must be something; an existence without essence cannot even be thought. If a being is created, then it is created in the way it is constituted; thus it is created badly if it is constituted badly, and constituted badly if it acts badly, meaning, having bad effects.” (§9. Scotus Erigena Parerga and Paralipomena Short Philosophical Essays Volume 1 Arthur Schopenhauer)

    There is also a certain similarity of Mainländer to the mystic Jakob Böhme:

    “The Supreme does not create out of nothing. Ex nihilo nihil fit—out of nothing nothing comes. He produces from His Own eternal nature and eternal wisdom, wherein all things dwell in a latent condition, all contrasts exist in a hidden or non-manifest state. When the Verbum Fiat, or Spoken Word, goes forth, these hidden principles — the qualities, forms, colours, powers, etc. — arise in a manifestation of glorious celestial orders in a universe of angelic beings whose life is light, joy, and peace.” (W. P. SWAINSON – JACOB BOEHME. THE TEUTONIC PHILOSOPHER)

    Western philosophy has made the mistake of thinking that whatever exists perfectly necessarily wants to exist or to remain in existence. But it is not a logical contradiction, because it concerns only a question of value, that the perfect being can choose non-being in spite of its perfection. God may very well come to the conclusion that non-being is better than any form of being, even the divine one.

    Buddhism, now culturally very influential, is definitely in line with Mainländer’s thinking, unlike Hinduism:

    “There was a definite shift of values when Buddhism emerged from Hinduism. Even though both groups retained the concept of Nirvana, the definition of Nirvana shifted from being merged with ultimate reality to extinction.” (Yancey, George; Quosigk, Ashlee – One Faith No Longer)

    Even Christianity, in certain respects and in a limited way, namely with regard to the voluntary death on the cross of the Son of God, does not seem to be as far away from Mainländer as some might think:

    “[John] Donne […] wrote Biathanatos, a defense of outright suicide in which Jesus himself is chief among the exemplary suicides of the past. Biathanatos—so daring in its day that it could be published only after Donne’s death—is a tour de force of authentic intellectual passion. A fiercely brilliant scholar who once confessed a “sickely inclination” to become a biathanatos (that is, a suicide: the Greek word means “one dead by violence, especially self-inflicted”), Donne was paradoxically strengthened by his pathology to trace Christian martyrdom to its source in the suicide of God Incarnate. The ambiguity of the question resides in the fact that Christ is a suicide by metaphysical definition, whether or not he is a suicide in some more ordinary sense of the word. That is, if Jesus is God Incarnate, then no one can have taken his life away from him against his wishes. His suicide is, in this regard, as deeply built into the Christian story as the doctrine of the Incarnation. Thus, for Thomas Aquinas, Jesus was the cause of his own death as truly as a man who declines to close a window during a rainstorm is the cause of his own drenching. Thomas strongly implies, moreover, that those who actually killed Jesus, or conspired to kill him, were less than fully responsible agents, that they were tools in the hand of God, a species of human rainstorm drenching God because God wished to be drenched. There is support for the latter view in the New Testament itself. From the cross, Jesus says of his executioners, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do” (Luke 23:34). Peter, preaching in the Temple after Jesus’ death, says, “Now I know, brothers, that neither you nor your leaders had any idea what you were really doing; but this was the way God carried out what he had foretold when he said through all his prophets that his Christ would suffer” (Acts 3:17–18). But granting that Jesus is a suicide at least in this unique sense, is he a suicide in any more ordinary sense? Can his death be linked with the despair that precedes “private” suicide? Or was the ignominious suicide of Judas, Jesus’ betrayer, added to the Gospel story precisely as a reminder that a chasm separates ordinary human suicide from the suicide of the God-man? Dauzat, building on the contemporary philosophical debate over suicide, wants to see an overlap such that what is said theologically about Christ’s suicide can bear philosophically on the discussion of suicide in general. Voluntary, self-inflicted death, he says, typically represents the rejection of a marred or strangled life in the name of “une vie dont on ne meurt pas,” “a life you don’t die of.”” (Jack Miles – Christ: a crisis in the life of God)

    Cosmological proofs of God do not necessarily lead to a God who still exists:

    “Even if valid, the first-cause argument is capable only of demonstrating the existence of a mysterious first cause in the distant past. It does not establish the present existence of the first cause. On the basis of this argument, there is no reason to assume that the first cause still exists — which cuts the ground from any attempt to demonstrate the truth of theism by this approach.” (George H. Smith – Atheism. The Case Against God)

    “Indeed, why should God not be the originator and now no longer exist? After all, a mother causes a child but then dies.” (Peter Cole – Philosophy of Religion)

    “This world […] is the production of old age and dotage in some superannuated deity; and ever since his death has run on at adventures, from the first impulse and active force which it received from him….” (David Hume – Dialogues concerning Natural Religion Part V)

    Also a postulated necessity of the existence of God probably does not exclude the possibility of his self-annihilation:

    “What about the necessary existence of God? I have already suggested that what is metaphysically necessary is God’s initial existence. I see no reason to hold that God necessarily continues to exist. That is, I hold God had the power to bring a universe into being and then cease to exist, while the universe went on. I do not believe that God has exercised that power, and if you hold that God never had it, so be it.” (Peter Forrest – Developmental Theism: From Pure Will to Unbounded Love)

    “[T]he reasons given for believing that there is a necessary and simple being are only reasons for holding that, necessarily, at some time, there exists such a being. There is nothing incoherent in the idea that there was a first moment of Time, and that everything that was the case then was necessarily the case, including the existence of a simple being. That leaves open the possibility that this being might change or even cease to exist, contrary to classical theism.” (Peter Forrest – Developmental Theism: From Pure Will to Unbounded Love)

    This depends on a certain conception of time:

    “For Time, I take it, is characterized by the before/after relation between its parts. As it is, there is a succession of other moments. Brian Leftow has pointed out that if you are the only person at the counter, you are not a queue, and that Time is like a queue in that respect. But as soon as someone else comes along, there is a queue, and you are at the head of it (Leftow 2002). Likewise, if there are no other moments because God chooses to do nothing, then that moment is timeless. Yet if God acts, there is then at least one other moment, and so there is Time. If God chooses to create this universe, then the creative act is before now, and so God is not eternal.” (Peter Forrest – Developmental Theism: From Pure Will to Unbounded Love)

    That the universe had a beginning is something that all the evidence of empirical and theoretical physics now overwhelmingly supports:

    “The discovery that the universe is not static, but rather expanding, has profound philosophical and religious significance, because it suggested that our universe had a beginning. A beginning implies creation, and creation stirs emotions.” (Lawrence M. Krauss – A universe from nothing: why there is something rather than nothing)

    And that one can say God for the cause of the universe is supported by the following argument:

    “[W]e have in this case the origin of a temporal effect from a timeless cause. If the cause of the origin of the universe were an impersonal set of necessary and sufficient conditions, it would be impossible for the cause to exist without its effect. For if the necessary and sufficient conditions of the effect are timelessly given, then their effect must be given as well. The only way for the cause to be timeless [...] but for its effect to originate anew a finite time ago is for the cause to be a personal agent who freely chooses to bring about an effect without antecedent determining conditions.” (Philosophical Foundations for a Christian Worldview by J.P. Moreland William Lane Craig )

    Mainländer’s God or Simple (Basic, Primal) Unity (the One) is a Pure Contingency. That is, it might no longer be, or it might be different. This must not be misunderstood. It is a contingency of whither or where to and not one of whence or where from. That is, across all possible worlds, Mainländer’s One would always be the absolute basic and starting condition. It is contingent in the sense that it can be “willfully and deliberately” different or not at all. Yet it itself has not been caused to exist and cannot disappear at random, because it is the logically simplest, but at the same time also the “mystically” richest thing one can think of. It is Pure, Simple, Undifferentiated, All-Powerful, Intellectual, Wise, Self-Aware, Creative Freedom (of Choice) to remain as it is or not to be, without any existential pressure to act, and therefore totally at ease, in peace and serenity.

    For those who still believe in the impossibility of God’s irretrievable disappearance, should consider the following:

    “God is whatever God is. I don’t think It is constrained by human interpretations of what it can or should be, can or should do.” (T Clark from The Philosophy Forum)

    The advantages of Mainländer's conception is that one does not have to worry any more about a transcendence coexisting with the world, whose influences would be incomprehensible for us. With Mainländer there is only one reality, the pure comprehensible immanence.

    Another advantage is that Mainlander's philosophy perfectly fits the physical law of entropy. And this law is still the generally accepted one in physics today.

    The Christian doctrine of the Trinity is also reinterpreted accordingly by Mainländer:

    "[...] Mainländer introduces his dramatic concept of the death of God (108). This primal unity, this single universal substance, has all the attributes of God: it is transcendent, infinite and omnipotent. But since it no longer exists, this God is dead. Yet its death was not in vain. From it came the existence of the world. And so Mainländer declares in prophetic vein: “God is dead and his death was the life of the world” (108). This is Mainländer’s atheistic interpretation of the Christian trinity, to which he devotes much attention in the second volume of Die Philosophie der Erlösung. “The father gives birth to the son”—Article 20 of the Nicene Creed—means that God (the father) sacrifices himself in creating the world (the son). God exists entirely in and through Christ, so that the death of Christ on the cross is really the death of God himself. With that divine death, Mainländer proclaims, the mystery of the universe, the riddle of the Sphinx, is finally resolved, because the transcendent God, the source of all mystery, also disappears." (Frederick C. Beiser - Weltschmerz)

    And:

    "The personal God of Christianity was in reality a concession to Jewish monotheism, as its doctrine of a future life was a concession to the insufficiently tamed Jewish vitality. "Esoteric Christianity" is atheistic; in a veiled form it teaches the doctrine of the selfannihilation of the godhead that existed "before the world": and the real reward of the Christian virtues is the "beatitude felt as contrast through reflection of not-being". This meaning of Christianity is developed in a remarkable essay on ''The Doctrine of the Trinity" (vol. ii. 190-232). As characteristic examples of Mainlander's interpretations of Christian theology, it may be mentioned that in his view "the Holy Ghost is the way of God to not-being," and is identical on the one hand with "the fate of the world," on the other hand with "the Christian virtues "by which that fate is directly accelerated ; while "Satan is the personified means to the end," "the wild struggle of individual wills"." (T. Whittaker - review. In: Mind. A quarterly review of Psychology and Philosophy. XI (1886))
  • unenlightened
    9.2k
    That is a mighty big pile of words, and I have read some of them. I am never inclined to think that piles of words can oblige things to be thus and not so, and what I understand is that an experience is being described.

    The trauma of total consciousness fragments.

    I recognise it.

    But probably you prefer the details of theory...
  • frank
    15.8k
    I didn't read it all either, but the first part is line with Schopenhauer and neoplatonism. Where you say "death" read "satisfaction.". Same thing.
  • spirit-salamander
    268


    The concept of the Supreme Being, which I have presented, is different from that of Schopenhauer and the Neoplatonists.

    Plotin's and Schopenhauer's One is an eternal timeless self-willing.

    Plotinus and later Schopenhauer suggest that freedom of choice – what we would regard as freedom of will – is a characteristic of inferior entities. For them, ‘free’ is meant in the sense of unconstrained and "self-caused".

    Mainländer sees it differently. The freedom of the Supreme Principle consists in the freedom of choice.
    This Higher Principle can generate a will if needed, but it does not have to. At the "beginning" there is no will yet.
  • frank
    15.8k
    Schopenhauer suggest that freedom of choice – what we would regard as freedom of will – is a characteristic of inferior entities.spirit-salamander

    Schopenhauer was a hard determinist.
  • spirit-salamander
    268


    Yes, with regard to the world of appearances, that is, the empirical world.

    I mean, however, the will in itself, outside of space and time. Schopenhauer regards this will as free, in the sense of unrestricted, but not in the sense of free of choice.
  • spirit-salamander
    268
    By the way.

    The philosopher of religion Paul Draper calls the view I present here demergent deism:

    The view seems to be the opposite of emergent theism/deism, according to which the world evolves until it eventually becomes or produces God. Here, God devolves or transforms itself into the world. I see why you want to call it pandeism, but I think I will call it demergent deism.

    I think you can call it that or nihilistic pandeism.
  • spirit-salamander
    268
    @Cobra

    My post might be something for you, judging by your comment: I think it's not even a stretch to say God has already committed suicide.

    @Corvus

    Maybe my post is also interesting for you: You had started a discussion here, which might be covered in my post

    Logic of Omnipotence and Suicide
  • spirit-salamander
    268
    But probably you prefer the details of theory...unenlightened

    I wanted to create a position that could be respected in the philosophy of religion.
  • 180 Proof
    15.4k
    I think you can call it that or nihilistic pandeismspirit-salamander
    Just pandeism ...
  • spirit-salamander
    268


    What do you think about the label demergent deism?
  • 180 Proof
    15.4k
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_becomes_the_Universe

    As the link to an old post in my previous post shows, I think the "demergent deism" speculation is only a linear segment of a much grander cyclical story.

    edit: Also this .
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    Great post OP. I know now how to reconcile theism with atheism: God did exist (theism), but God's dead i.e. God doesn't exist (atheism).

    One question: God's afterlife?
  • spirit-salamander
    268
    I know now how to reconcile theism with atheism: God did exist (theism), but God's dead i.e. God doesn't exist (atheism).Agent Smith

    Yes, that is also what I think. In a way, a Hegelian synthesis of the thesis theism and the antithesis atheism.

    One question: God's afterlife?Agent Smith

    His afterlife takes place in or with this world of ours: The "connexion of things is, as it were, a "divine breath" blowing through the world from the "dead godhead"." (T. Whittaker - review. In: Mind. A quarterly review of Psychology and Philosophy. XI (1886))

    So his last breath still exists as the resultant and resulting movement of all things and connection of these to each other in this world.

    As soon as the "entropic" death of the world is reached, thus the absolute Nirvana, it is also over with that afterlife in form of the "divine" "breath" pervading the world.
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    Interesting ideas, yours. Please keep posting.
  • schopenhauer1
    10.9k

    Mainlander's take is an interesting one. I have not read his complete works. Does he actually believe the metaphysics of a dead god or was this more a metaphor for a unity that has exploded into a multiplicity? It does have shades of kabbalistic elements in it. Have you heard of Lurianic Kabbalah? If so, was Mainlander familiar with it, perhaps by proxy through indirect sources even?

    According to Lurianic Kabbalah, God's light could not be held in various vessels (sefirot) and thus they broke. This accounts for a certain amount of sin. By following the commandments, one repairs the vessels, some such like this.

    See here for more in depth:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qliphoth
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lurianic_Kabbalah
  • schopenhauer1
    10.9k

    This is right up my alley. I would argue Mainlander is Philosophical Pessimism (capital "P"s) par excellence.

    Working in the metaphysical framework of Schopenhauer, Mainländer sees the "will" as the innermost core of being, the ontological arche. However, he deviates from Schopenhauer in important respects. With Schopenhauer the will is singular, unified and beyond time and space. Schopenhauer's transcendental idealism leads him to conclude that we only have access to a certain aspect of the thing-in-itself by introspective observation of our own bodies. What we observe as will is all there is to observe, nothing more. There are no hidden aspects. Furthermore, via introspection we can only observe our individual will. This also leads Mainländer to the philosophical position of pluralism.[2] The goals he set for himself and for his system are reminiscent of ancient Greek philosophy: what is the relation between the undivided existence of the "One" and the everchanging world of becoming that we experience.

    Additionally, Mainländer accentuates on the idea of salvation for all of creation. This is yet another respect in which he differentiates his philosophy from that of Schopenhauer. With Schopenhauer, the silencing of the will is a rare event. The artistic genius can achieve this state temporarily, while only a few saints have achieved total cessation throughout history. For Mainländer, the entirety of the cosmos is slowly but surely moving towards the silencing of the will to live and to (as he calls it) "redemption".

    Mainlander theorized that an initial singularity dispersed and expanded into the known universe. This dispersion from a singular unity to a multitude of things offered a smooth transition between monism and pluralism. Mainländer thought that with the regression of time, all kinds of pluralism and multiplicity would revert to monism and he believed that, with his philosophy, he had managed to explain this transition from oneness to multiplicity and becoming.[15]

    Death of God
    Main article: God is dead
    Despite his scientific means of explanation, Mainländer was not afraid to philosophize in allegorical terms. Formulating his own "myth of creation", Mainländer equated this initial singularity with God.

    Mainländer reinterprets Schopenhauer's metaphysics in two important aspects. Primarily, in Mainländer's system there is no "singular will". The basic unity has broken apart into individual wills and each subject in existence possesses an individual will of his own. Because of this, Mainländer can claim that once an "individual will" is silenced and dies, it achieves absolute nothingness and not the relative nothingness we find in Schopenhauer. By recognizing death as salvation and by giving nothingness an absolute quality, Mainländer's system manages to offer "wider" means for redemption. Secondarily, Mainländer reinterprets the Schopenhauerian will-to-live as an underlying will-to-die, i.e. the will-to-live is the means towards the will-to-die.[16]

    Ethics
    Mainländer's philosophy also carefully inverts other doctrines. For instance, Epicurus sees happiness only in pleasure and since there is nothing after death, there is nothing to fear and/or desire from death. Yet Mainländer, being a philosophical pessimist, sees no desirable pleasure in this life and praises the sublime nothingness of death, recognizing precisely this state of non-existence as desirable.

    Mainländer espouses an ethics of egoism. That is to say that what is best for an individual is what makes one happiest. Yet all pursuits and cravings lead to pain. Thus, Mainländer concludes that a will-to-death is best for the happiness of all and knowledge of this transforms one's will-to-life (an illusory existence unable to attain happiness) into the proper (sought by God) will-to-death. Ultimately, the subject (individual will) is one with the universe, in harmony with it and with its originating will, if one wills nothingness. Based on these premises, Mainländer makes the distinction between the "ignorant" and the "enlightened" type of self-interest. Ignorant self-interest seeks to promote itself and capitalize on its will-to-live. In contrast, enlightened self-interest humbles the individual and leads him to asceticism, as that aligns him properly with the elevating will-towards-death.[17]
    — Wikipedia article on Mainlander
  • spirit-salamander
    268
    Does he actually believe the metaphysics of a dead god or was this more a metaphor for a unity that has exploded into a multiplicity?schopenhauer1

    Yes, more of a metaphor. He uses the Kantian regulative as-if language. As if there was an intention of self-destruction.

    But since in the Philosophy of Religion deductive arguments also deal with the God of Classical Theism (a variant of the Neoplatonic One), who strictly speaking is also not a person, I took the liberty to do the same with Mainländer's "God".

    [Here is an example of a deductive premise involving the classical theistic God: "1. God’s act of creation is an intentional action (if only analogously so)" (https://philpapers.org/rec/SCHCTA-28)

    What is written in brackets could also be said for Mainländer's metaphysics.]

    Have you heard of Lurianic Kabbalah? If so, was Mainlander familiar with it, perhaps by proxy through indirect sources even?schopenhauer1

    I have heard about it and also that a similarity with Mainländer is mentioned. As far as I know, there is no evidence that Mainländer knew about it.

    I rather think of a passage by Schopenhauer:

    "It would obviously have to be an ill-advised God who knew no better way to have fun than to transform himself into a world such as ours, into such a hungry world, where he would have to endure misery, deprivation and death, without measure and purpose, in the form of countless millions of living but fearful and tortured beings, all of whom exist for a while only because one devours the other. For example, in the form of six million Negro slaves who receive on average sixty million lashes a day to their naked bodies; and in the form of three million European weavers who vegetate feebly in stifling attics or desolate factory halls, plagued by hunger and grief, and so on. This in my eyes would be amusement for a God, who as such would certainly be accustomed to quite different circumstances!" (Parerga and Paralipomena, Volume 2. Chapter 5. Some words on pantheism §69)
  • spirit-salamander
    268
    This is right up my alley. I would argue Mainlander is Philosophical Pessimism (capital "P"s) par excellence.schopenhauer1

    It is often said that Julius Bahnsen even surpasses both Schopenhauer and Mainländer in pessimism.
  • schopenhauer1
    10.9k
    It is often said that Julius Bahnsen even surpasses both Schopenhauer and Mainländer in pessimism.spirit-salamander

    Yep, I can see that. Schopenhauer offers a monified Will, compassion, and ascetic salvation. Mainlander provides salvation-through-negation. Bahnsen offers no hope of salvation with an emphasis to the multiplicity of being, and its non-monistic, non-unified quality. We are just hopelessly alone amongst other wills, not even knowing which value is necessary or right, often contradicting ourselves and others as we go about in our self-interested path.

    I've brought this idea up before that the more pessimistic thought is not a unified monism (even if it strives hopelessly for no end, and with an escape through aesthetics, compassion, and quieting of the will) but an irrevocable disunified multiplicity of being that can never be reconciled.

    In a sense, isn't the truly committed academics' quest that of unification of knowledge? Yet working against him is the massive amounts of data, physical properties, technologies, and such.. Minutia upon minutia, to be mongered by specialized departments, teams, and organizations.. Unification of knowledge becomes a losing game.

    And in a sense, the unification sought after in Marxist and Communist theories of a unified society- one where everyone is working for a decided humanist purpose of sorts withers away to the more natural and efficient, messy markets.. keeping knowledge, goals, social interests, etc. separated into their companies, corporations, and profit-seeking ventures, competing in a market place. Unification of economics, and purpose becomes a losing game the roiling marketplace of just trying to survive by working a job where one must focus their attention on this set of inane things, not that set, you see.
  • spirit-salamander
    268
    In a sense, isn't the truly committed academics' quest that of unification of knowledge? Yet working against him is the massive amounts of data, physical properties, technologies, and such.. Minutia upon minutia, to be mongered by specialized departments, teams, and organizations.. Unification of knowledge becomes a losing game.

    And in a sense, the unification sought after in Marxist and Communist theories of a unified society- one where everyone is working for a decided humanist purpose of sorts withers away to the more natural and efficient, messy markets.. keeping knowledge, goals, social interests, etc. separated into their companies, corporations, and profit-seeking ventures, competing in a market place. Unification of economics, and purpose becomes a losing game the roiling marketplace of just trying to survive by working a job where one must focus their attention on this set of inane things, not that set, you see.
    schopenhauer1

    Interesting train of thought
  • schopenhauer1
    10.9k

    Thank you, I do know a bit about Mainlander's theory as a philosophical pessimist myself. I just have never read his works in full and have not done an analysis like your OP, so I thought it interesting you made a topic about it. I'll check those out. I especially want to read Beiser's book, which I was aware of but reminds me to try to get a copy.

    The problem all these philosophers saw was being born at all. Being becomes an inescapable trap where we must constantly pretend to distract from being itself.

    Peter Wessel Zapffe captures this in his notion that we have evolved a self-reflective consciousness, that inadvertently puts us in a double-bind. We know we exist in a suffering state. Combining this with Existential ideas, we know we are an animal with certain propensities, yet we know we can also do otherwise than what we are doing, yet the "thrownness" of the world makes it so we really "can't" do otherwise than the confines of the socio-economic-physical forces of our existence provides for us. This whole situation thus makes it that we are the only animal that can do a task, resent it, but know we have to do it if we need to survive. We are the species of the double-bind mind. We cannot escape our own evaluations and analysis and preferences. We know we can't. Yet we are compelled to continue on doing what we don't want to do.

    And so we have mechanisms of distraction, isolation, sublimation, and ignoring that we do to try to pretend like the suffering of our existential situation doesn't exist. But it always rears its ugly head.

    Now consider the justifications (and their many combinations) for having more humans go through this.
    1) It isn't that bad! (and can we count on ourselves to even judge our own lives let alone if others should endure this?)
    2) I feel like I did ok!
    3) Whoops, accident, I guess I'll keep it!
    4) Religion/tradition
    5) Family strongly pressures me
    6) I want to see X come out as a result (usually happy experiences upon the child, or some achievement). This probably the most popular "philosophical-based" reason (if these people were pressed.. people barely have a coherent philosophical reason why they procreate).

    None of these justifications are good ones for causing the consequence of creating the conditions for suffering on another experiential point of view (will?) put into the world.

    Why make others go through this? Isn't this a messianic complex? Parents think they are "spreading" the X (insert positive value here) of life to new people! Yet, the collateral damage is they are spreading the suffering, and very human existential condition upon yet another hapless victim of it.

    So what do we do about it? Well, Mainlander certainly advocated the idea of redemption through non-being. The ultimate move here would be suicide, which he himself followed through with. One of my questions about him is, how does he reconcile individual redemption through non-being vs. universal redemption through non-being? How does one resolve salvation and non-being here? I guess it is simply the ceasing of suffering itself, as a state-of-affairs he is after, and not the realization of it (which of course cannot happen if you are not alive to realize it). Perhaps it is the consolation that non-being is always an option that is sort of a "salvation" while already alive? Also, really for the dying god, nothing really matters until the absolute final death of the universe itself. So it is still pessimistic in the sense that redemption isn't had for the dying god until much further in the future. Each death means nothing if it is constantly replaced.. There would have to be a total finality for it to have any redemption for itself. But what does that look like? Just a complete "silencing" of there being "no-thing"? But if that's the case, what is that equivalent to in the real world? The heat death of the universe?

    Hartmann thought that we should keep pursuing our petty individual plans, and play out our lives, because eventually at some future time (in an inversion of Hegel's positive Absolute), we would all come to the understanding that life should no longer be lived and basically decide to die out as a species. The Absolute here would be an understanding of the suffering of the world, as we understand that perpetuating it for some happy purpose is an illusion. I find his idea fascinating here as he thinks we should keep on hurrying along as we do, so that we will eventually become existentially disillusioned, and as a sort of species-realization (?), we would stop our petty pursuits and give up the silly notion of happiness, progress, etc. and essentially die out of our own accord (by not procreating?).

    Bahnsen, provides the pessimism of the non-salvation. That is to say, we are all in this shit, and there is, and will be no way out. It has flavors of Camus' Sisyphus. He thought the closest thing to a respite, was laughter and humor, and that is just a consolation and no real reprieve. There is no progress, but there is no escape route through ascetic retreat either. He emphasized that we shouldn't even try to use hedonic calculus for pessimism, as this isn't what truly makes life pessimistic. The pessimism comes from the existential struggle itself, as described by Schopenhauer and so many other philosophers through time on the human condition. I applaud this specific point as I think when debating the ethics of things like procreation, people will try to point to "there may be more goods than bads" or "people in surveys generally say they like being born" or something like that. This sort of bypasses the tendency to take hedonic calculations and surveys as somehow "definitive" of whether life was worth starting for someone else. Bleak? Certainly. But we must stare into the abyss and not flinch if we are to get some clarity as this double-bind creature of the human.. A creature that knows its own existential situation and can do something about it. I feel like people rush into judging the pessimist after one has some great experience and says, "NOOO! WAIT! I HAD A GOOD TIME! Then wait a day or two and see.. the story might change. We should not hang our hat on just these whims that perhaps Bahnsen was getting at.

    I personally, would add my own spin that having a child in this existence means creating for it burdens to overcome. It is ethically wrong to be so paternalistic as to think others need burdens created for them to be overcome. What ever happened to leaving "well enough alone"? Why create situations of challenge-overcoming in some existential obstacle course for someone else in the first place? That is to say, nothing needs nothing needs nothing needs nothing. Yet, here we are, playing paternalistic messiah, creating need in the first place. Need to survive. Need for love. Need for pleasure. Need for stimulation. Need for this or that. And this is irresponsibly deemed as "good" to create in the first place on someone else's behalf! But what gives you the right to think others must need need? That there must be a state of affairs in the world where someone experiences the overcoming of challenges? Why is this somehow considered necessary and good? The universe doesn't care. It creates the struggle de novo, out of nothing, and all because one wants to see the situation repeated, over and over. But one should pause before pursuing this and making the strife in the world in the first place. It can be prevented upon other individuals. We have the ability to do this, and not give into delusions that the struggle is necessary.
  • spirit-salamander
    268
    I just have never read his works in full and have not done an analysis like your OP, so I thought it interesting you made a topic about it.schopenhauer1

    A translation into English could appear at the end of the year if all goes well. But probably more likely next year.

    My motivation was actually to strengthen Mainländer's philosophy a bit. Because he is hardly taken seriously by most philosophers who have read him. His basic ideas tend to be dismissed as nonsensical. And I hope to have shown with my post that it may not be so absurd after all. In any event, no more absurd than many "established" theories out there. In the least, many are fascinated by Mainländer. For an ontological nihilism has never been taken to such an extreme in the history of ideas.

    The problem all these philosophers saw was being born at all. Being becomes an inescapable trap where we must constantly pretend to distract from being itself.schopenhauer1

    Although Schopenhauer is one of my favorite philosophers, his pessimism, as well as that of his entire school, seems to me a bit excessive. And when I read his Aphorisms on the wisdom of life, I don't quite buy his pessimism. The question is where the true Schopenhauer is to be found, rather in those aphorisms or even merely in his first volume of his main work. The biography of Schopenhauer also shows that he had a cosmopolitan, epicurean (both aesthetic and sensual) side.

    Against what I consider to be Schopenhauer's crude (sometimes even unintentionally funny) pessimistic remarks, one can make the following quotations:

    “It isn’t the events themselves that disturb people, but only their judgements about them.” – Epictetus

    "It seems to me that people always exaggerate when they speak of pain and misfortune, as if it were a requirement of good manners to exaggerate here, while one keeps studiously quiet about the fact that there are innumerable palliatives against pain, such as anaesthesia or the feverish haste of thoughts, or a quiet posture, or good or bad memories, purposes, hopes, and many kinds of pride and sympathy that almost have the same effect as anaesthetics—and at the highest degrees of pain one automatically loses consciousness. We know quite well how to drip sweetnesses upon our bitternesses, especially the bitternesses of the soul; we find remedies in our courage and sublimity as well as the nobler deliria of submission and resignation. A loss is a loss for barely one hour; somehow it also brings us some gift from heaven—new strength, for example, or at least a new opportunity for strength." (Nietzsche - The gay science 326)

    "The following, then, are the main tenets or golden maxims of Epicurus: [...]
    IV. Continuous pain does not last long in the flesh, and pain, if extreme, is present a very short time, and even that degree of pain which barely outweighs pleasure in the flesh does not occur for many days together. Illnesses of long duration even permit of an excess of pleasure over pain in the flesh." (Robert Drew Hicks - Stoic and epicurean)

    Your pessimistic remarks about the others are, I admit it, somewhat more subtle.
  • schopenhauer1
    10.9k

    Well, you are talking to a Schopenhauer sympathizer here..

    I believe my problem with Stoicism is similar to the Bahnsen's critiques..
    However, one of my personal reasons I think Stoicism is not good is that it basically takes the stance of the status quo. By not allowing oneself to get emotionally upset at a situation, one is tacitly giving credence that the situation was okay to begin with. No, it wasn't. Yes, you were wronged by even encountering it. Yes, it is too late. But yes, by way of antinatalism and sublimation through philosophic griping, one can at least rebel in both action and prose against it. Stoicism is just the middle-classes way of keeping people in line. Fuck that. It reminds me of Bertrand Russell's (I think it was?) critique of Aristotle's boring, middle-class, "golden mean" virtue ethics. It's a businessman's ethics. It's shopkeeper's ethics. It's the ethics of not looking at the total and not wanting to look at the total. It's an ethics for people who think that life provides Reason, and that they just have to "tap in" to that Reason. It's the smug man's overcoat of self-assuredness.
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